Build Your Brand for the Search Results of 2028With Brian Javeline of My Online Toolbox

Eric Fortenberry: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I’m your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories

Eric Fortenberry: Welcome back everybody. Today I have got Brian Javeline who is the CEO of My Online Toolbox. They’re located in beautiful South Florida. Really excited to have you on the show. Welcome to Builder Stories.

Brian Javeline: Thank you, Eric. Thank you so much for having me here

Eric Fortenberry: So why don’t you kick us off, give us a little bit of background, who you are, what you do, how’d you get into it?

Brian Javeline: Okay. Well, Eric, uh, like you, I entered this industry in 2005, and when people go to search out My Online Toolbox, there’s a small part of our history which was very similar to, to your business because we entered the industry in 2005 with one of the first [00:01:00] online platforms for the entry-level estimating, invoicing, collections, but this was literally just when your competitor was getting started.

Brian Javeline: And in a short amount of time, what-- This was when you were found- founding your other company that you had, and so you can appreciate how in 2005, the internet was not what it is today. So when I said we had a basic version of estimating, invoicing, and collections, trust me, it’s between 1% and 5% of what’s on your mind today for JobTread.

Brian Javeline: But the history is, in less than a year, we had just under 4,000 people that signed up, but they were the early adopters of the internet. We weren’t even at the builder show and stuff like that. And in less than a year, something changed, which was we were doing these quarterly newsletters that went out, and it was typical snail mail, so you could just picture the scenario of trying to communicate with customers.

Brian Javeline: And we didn’t know much about our [00:02:00] clients other than what we saw in the database. So we started to make a comment on the f- the, the, the third-- the fourth page, excuse me, about how, “Hey, it’s great to have you do the estimating, invoicing, but we would love to know a little bit about our customers other than going to the database to figure out somebody’s a quarter million, a hun- 50,000, a startup.”

Brian Javeline: And we just said, “Get a website. Do this. Do this.” But it was extremely rudimentary. And so I know, you know, I can only speak to very few people who can kind of go back to 2005 and kind of appreciate the dynamics. But we had thousands of people using the free version, another thousand that were converting to the paid versions of what we had, but all of a sudden, people were calling my office to speak to me to talk about marketing.

Brian Javeline: And I started to offer a little bit of consulting on the side while I was in startup mode. So you could picture the same dynamics of where your head was at with your th- you know, your predecessor company. And all of a sudden, I was like, “Oh, [00:03:00] great, this is great cash flow.” And one thing led to another, and then within a short time, it became overwhelming for me, that I couldn’t keep up because I was trying to run an evolving software company, but I was really addicted to the marketing education.

Brian Javeline: So all of a sudden, I started to passively put together a small online class to slow down the consulting side. Well then that online class started to grow on its own. One thing led to another, and I had basically two brains. I was trying to do what you were doing, uh, much more successfully obviously than what I was doing at, in 2005, and I was becoming more successful at something that wasn’t even being marketed, the education.

Brian Javeline: And so all of a sudden, it took me about two years to get out of the software industry and stay within the marketing education industry, and that’s how it evolved. It wasn’t really a plan, it just was, it became something that was [00:04:00] never part of the, you know, the business plan of, you know, software, you know, for estimating and invoicing and moving into marketing education.

Brian Javeline: And here we are, you know, many years later where, uh, you’re, you’re dominating in your field and, and I’m extremely happy about it by the way. I think you’re doing an, you and your team is doing an awesome job, and we just continued to evolve since that point for specifically marketing education for the industry.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. That’s awesome. And, you know, again, I, I, I think it’s very important that, you know, people sort of really focus in on this, the construction industry and really understanding the nuances there versus, you know, I’ve seen a lot of marketing agencies that try to, try to kinda do the same thing for all different types of industries, but, you know, you’ve really kind of niched down into, into this, this construction industry, which I think is very, very helpful.

Brian Javeline: The biggest success has been, and, and, and it’s also a challenge, is that everything we do, every single segment of education is based on a real customer or real person out there. Sometimes they’re not even customers of ours. They [00:05:00] are ex, you know, students, years have gone by, and we’re just awe- aware that they’re doing so good, and they’re something that literally just when somebody’s talking about a very specific topic, it really deserves to be an honorable mention of, if you’re doing this particular topic and you have no idea about what the topic is, here is the topic.

Brian Javeline: Here is someone in your industry implementing the topic. So it’s, it do- it becomes much more digestible to, to, to learn rather than just being a very subjective and ambiguous, uh, marketing topic.

Eric Fortenberry: Sure. So I’m curious, again, working with, with all these different contractors at various, you know, sizes and scales and, and, and points in time here, like, w- I’d like to sort of learn a little bit more about, like, what do you think contractors, you know, get wrong about marketing?

Eric Fortenberry: What do, what do they not understand about marketing that, that, that may be, you know, kinda causing them to, to not do as good as they could or to not invest what they should? You know, where do you think the misconceptions are about marketing for, for [00:06:00] contractors?

Brian Javeline: It starts with n- not understanding marketing in the first place, and they kinda treat a website as marketing, or they treat Facebook or Instagram or whatever the topic of the day is, you know, it could even be email.

Brian Javeline: Um, and they don’t realize that take, take all the tools and move them away like they don’t exist and say, “Okay, let’s talk about marketing, just in general. Let’s talk about your brand. Let’s talk about what you do, where you do it, your target audience. Um, what type of customer are you looking for? Is it a low end, a high end?”

Brian Javeline: And there’s so many topics that just go into defining who you are, and unfortunately, too many people have learned marketing in their minds by simply getting a website. And then they put something there. They then add another layer and another layer, and before they know it, they’re, they start questioning why it’s not working.

Brian Javeline: And it’s kinda like Going to, you know, I always joke, I have some in- silly [00:07:00] analogies I’ve used for years, and they’ll, people will come to me and say, “Hey, what do you think about this icing?” I’m like, “I’m a baker. Let’s talk about the cake.” The icing I could change. The icing, you know, I could add sprinkles, I could add cherries, but don’t talk about the icing before you talk about the cake, you know?

Brian Javeline: And, and that, um, is one of many that I use because they just don’t simply understand the principles of brand marketing. They, they treat their knowledge or their desire of the knowledge of technology to imply that they understood the foundations of marketing in the first place, and that little weakness, kinda like the person you interviewed just a f- a few weeks ago, um, Milton, this $100,000 in debt guy.

Brian Javeline: He didn’t understand marketing, but he was a great contractor. He then took a step back to learn what marketing is, and of course, now, you know, he’s was on your show, he’s doing great financially, he’s loving using your product. But he didn’t change. His business grew, but he never really knew how to express to the world what [00:08:00] does he do.

Brian Javeline: Yeah. And now he does it extremely well, and of course, he’s riding the wave. He’s now using your tool, which is wonderful, and now just taking him to the next level of efficiency. But before we, he took our education classes almost 10 years ago, he didn’t know what marketing was. He was just a great contractor who didn’t know- Yeah

Brian Javeline: how to share it with the world.

Eric Fortenberry: So where do you think, you know, l- let’s, let’s kind of just assume that we’ve got the website going. It, it really does, it’s, it’s a basic, everyone’s gotta have a great website in this day and age. I mean, you know, I tell people, again, it’s, it’s the face of your company, like you have to have a great website that performs for you.

Eric Fortenberry: But so many people stop there So what do you think are the next kind of most important marketing building blocks and tools that they should start to look at that they could deploy to, to really kind of get that effort going even more?

Brian Javeline: Well, it’s easier than people want to, um, appreciate because it’s continuity and not treating it like they built whatever it may be.

Brian Javeline: Yes, the website, but it could also mean, you [00:09:00] know, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, their Google profile, e- email, newsletters, whatever. And I think what happens is too many people try something quickly, and they measure it in a timeframe that’s not meant for marketing success, you know? And, uh, you know, I don’t...

Brian Javeline: Some people might be listening to us here, but, you know, I’m 61 years old. I’m rather fit, but I’ve been going to the gym now since I’m 18 years old, and the equipment has changed dramatically in those years. When I first went to the gyms, it was just, you know, weights, free weights. Now you have all these devices, and it looks like you’re, you know, you’re, you’re on, uh, like the, the gym in Avatar.

Brian Javeline: But some people don’t realize if you still don’t go to the gym, the machine itself might have a different way and cool way of showing metrics, but the continuity over an extended period of time allows me to be a, you know, a healthy 60-year-old guy operating like I’m a 20-year-old entrepreneur. You know, I’m not burnt out.

Brian Javeline: And the marketing component, even for me, is difficult [00:10:00] in a sense because I, I have certain things like yourself that you’re just always keeping the momentum going, and I just put it on the calendar as part of the process. And I think a lot of times people fight the marketing and kind of put it on a, let me wait until, you know, somewhere between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and we’ll do a little jolt and then kind of forget about it for, you know, many, many months.

Brian Javeline: And they don’t realize that it’s really easier if they embed it in their process. And I don’t mean doing daily posts But I do mean periodic updates, and that can mean weekly, it could even mean monthly, but it shouldn’t mean quarterly or every six months. There’s not a contractor out there who doesn’t have something going on.

Brian Javeline: They might have a plan that’s been approved, but it’s not going into production for another one, two, or three months. They might have something going on in the field. They just finished a project. But this whole rotation of the plan, what’s happening, what happened, there’s just... Th- they’re like living, breathing dreams to [00:11:00] a marketer because their entire life is, is a m- is just a wonderful, unique story.

Brian Javeline: And if they learn to take a moment to tell their story as it’s happening, all of a sudden, when six months and one year and two years goes by, it looks easy, but it’s really the process was making it easy, not like somehow they took my class or took-- went to an agency or whatever they did. They really had the momentum going, and they kept it going as part of the business process.

Brian Javeline: And I think just accepting that is a massive step in the right direction of where someone wants to be one to five years from now, rather than, you know, like the Sandler classes, you know, being on Hope Island just sitting there and praying that stuff is gonna happen. It takes an effort, but it’s not a massive effort.

Brian Javeline: It just takes an effort to be on the calendar continuously.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. No, I, I, I couldn’t agree more, and, and it, and it is, it’s an ongoing thing. It’s, it’s not this like I’m gonna go, you know, run an ad or put out a post and just see how it does and then think that that was the end of it and it [00:12:00] either performed or it didn’t.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, I, I, I see a lot of people too that, you know, they, they think that, you know, when, when the work slows down, that’s when they need to turn on the marketing and they need to start doing everything. But then when they get a job or they start getting busy, that’s when they turn it off. You know, when, when you see that start-stop happen, like what...

Eric Fortenberry: h- how does that actually impact, you know, these, these companies?

Brian Javeline: A lot of times it g- it mentally gets to them heavily because they don’t want to face the facts that the slowdown is the result of them slowing down six months to a year ago. And it’s acknowledging that and admitting it. So even we have this whole, um, handful of ent- what I like to call entrepreneurial ideas that they don’t like to hear, that they’ll say, “Hey, you know, at my online toolbox things are slowed down, slowing down.

Brian Javeline: What do you think?” And I tell them, “It’s a two-pronged attack. The first thing we’re gonna do on your marketing side is gonna help you for something that’s probably not gonna come for another three months, six months if you’re lucky. But now you’re gonna get in your [00:13:00] truck, you’re gonna be passing by all your customers,” because this is the field way of knocking on doors, saying you were in the area, you just wanted to thank them for their past business and see what was going on.

Brian Javeline: And all of a sudden they get very defensive. “Well, I don’t wanna do that.” And I’m like, “Well, I’m sorry, that’s the hole you dug. You pushed off the marketing to a point that now you have to do plan B and go back to that, that zest for picking up the business when you didn’t have a brand, when you didn’t have the momentum.”

Brian Javeline: And they fight me on it, and I go through the, you know, send an email. That’s the easy one ’cause it just, you know, non-confrontational. Make a phone call. That gets a little bit resistance. And then trying to get someone just to knock on someone’s door and say hello with a handshake, shocking. You know, years ago when I was on the streets of New York, it was the best thing ever, knocking, you know, shaking hands and having a connection.

Brian Javeline: Now, for some reason, so many people have an allergic reaction to going to say hello to somebody they’ve already done business with because they perceive it [00:14:00] as wasting time. And I tell them, “The problem is you’re m- making, you’re being forced to make up for the lost time that you created by not doing any marketing during an extended period of time.”

Brian Javeline: So you just have to choose your battles and, and it’s like a repetitive, you know, press one to complain about this, press two to get an answer, press three this. And it’s a, it’s a merry-go-round. But, uh, it, sometimes it’s because of dormancy. Other times it’s because somebody was not as good as a competitor who was just on their A game for longer than the, you know, the, the person who just decided to get a little, uh, you know, lax with their success.

Brian Javeline: So I think there’s a hybrid of making sure you’re moving forward, period comma, making sure you’re moving, period, equivalent to your top competitors. And there is two separate games. You know, I used to be a, a soccer coach for 12 years, and so I see the world from a, “Hey, Eric, I [00:15:00] don’t know you, but I could teach you how to kick the ball into the net to make you feel good, but also I need to teach you how to kick the ball into the net when there’s four people trying to take your legs out from under you before you kick the ball.”

Brian Javeline: And there’s two separate aspects there. And again, going back to these simple analogies, when I see a company, I tell them, “First we have to learn about you. That, that’s a given. Then we have to learn about you to differentiate you from your local comp- competitors.” And it doesn’t mean you have to be cheaper.

Brian Javeline: It doesn’t mean you have to be faster. It does mean you have to have a clear differentiator. And in this industry, many of the people that we both target really luck out. A lot of their competitors avoid marketing like the plague, and that is the competitive advantage, to realize that you put 10 guys in a room, eight hate talking about marketing.

Brian Javeline: Wonderful. The odds are in their favor. So just embrace something that’s gonna allow you to differentiate and, you know, become professional, have a great image, be [00:16:00] continuous, uh, constantly keep the momentum going, and all of a sudden you start to become number one, two, and three in your local demographic simply because a lot of your competitors allowed you to do that over a period of time.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. You know, I, I, I hear all the time when contractors are, you know, they, they, they come in, they’re like, “Man, you know, we’re, we’re struggling to grow,” you know, “It’s, it’s the economy,” or it’s, you know, they, they, they come up with all these different reasons why they’re struggling to grow. You know, but at the root of it, I mean, I, I often believe it’s, it’s, it’s really their marketing is failing to produce.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, they’re, they’re not getting the lead flow they need. They’re not getting the at-bats. They’re not getting the chances. They haven’t positioned themselves appropriately. They’re not focused on value. Like, where, where do you, you know, where, where would you say when, when someone comes to you and, and says that same thing, like, where do you really go to dig in?

Eric Fortenberry: Like, where do you think the root of the problem is?

Brian Javeline: Well, the first thing is we always need to learn what exactly is where [00:17:00] their ideal clients are. And a lot of times just defining that takes a moment because I, I use examples of when someone says, “Well, I’m in construction.” “Oh, great. Will you build me a home?”

Brian Javeline: “Oh, no, no, I didn’t mean that. I’m a remodeler.” Ah, so you’re not in construction. That one word inadvertently got me distorted, and here I am a fairly smart guy, I think, and I sat- tell people I’m fairly smart, but for a moment I was slightly misunderstanding what you do. So let’s not say you’re in construction anymore.

Brian Javeline: Let’s say you’re in remodeling. While we’re in remodeling, what do you prefer to do? “Well, I could do everything.” Well, good point, but doing everything might bring in someone who just wants you to fix a, you know, a little knob on a, on a cabinet, right? Not, not a, “Oh, I want a kitchen remod- re- kitchen remodel.”

Brian Javeline: So I first teach them how to make sure that they clearly identify what is it that makes the majority of their business model. It doesn’t mean Eliminate everything else, but [00:18:00] don’t take the smallest item and make it become- ... part of the picture, because that’s like someone calling me up and saying, “Hey, Brian, do you do Instagram?”

Brian Javeline: I’m like, “What the hell does that mean?” You know? Excuse me. You know, what does that mean? Instagram is just an, a piece of the marketing puzzle. Of course I’m on Instagram, but I don’t do Instagram. It’s just part of a puzzle. After we help them define what they, you know, what they really want to do so they could help glamorize it the right way, both cosmetically and technically, we then have to have them identify, preferably, the ideal service areas that they want to go to.

Brian Javeline: Because unlike you and I, we could service anybody, um, on the planet, for that matter. But that’s, you know, what you do and what I do. But the average contractor has this preferred geography, and it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a circle. It might be a weird triangle, a rectangle. It can mean anything. But they need to realize that until the world sees where they prefer the, to go, and they could [00:19:00] combine the service area with the t- target services properly, that becomes the foundation.

Brian Javeline: And then comes validation. You know, you and me, we both have a ridiculous number of reviews backing us up on what we say. A lot of people miss out on the opportunity to realize that, you know, you and I, we both get reviews from people that we mostly don’t meet as much as a, and we’re not definitely in their homes petting their dogs and sitting down at their kitchen table.

Brian Javeline: And I know you as a, with your predecessor company, I know that you were getting credibility, you know, as part of visiting people, as part of the process. Sure. And a lot of these people, they’re sitting there with their customers, and they forget, and they come up with so many excuses on why they couldn’t get a review.

Brian Javeline: You know, and you and I would probably be a little harsh if we were the CEO of those companies saying, “Look, if you can’t get a review, I’ll give you one out of two maybe, but I’m not gonna give you, you know, four out of five excuses why you can’t get a review on either Google, Facebook, or video. You’re [00:20:00] fired.”

Brian Javeline: As part of that, because that validation and having other people talk about you is so critical to helping establish your credibility for cosmetic appeal when people see you. And now, with the way the SEO and GEO worlds are working with validation through multiple sources, you want every possible leverage as part of your success of what you’re doing, where you’re doing it, and who else says you’re doing a good job besides yourself.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. Well, so let’s, let’s talk a little bit more about, you know, kind of the m- m- the industry as it’s changed. I mean, marketing has traditionally been built around, you know, Google Search, you know, SEO. You know, what, what, what have you seen kind of the, the changes that are, that have, that have come from the emergence of AI search, and, and what, what has and hasn’t, you know, happened, do you think, that, that, that would make a big impact on, on people’s marketing?

Brian Javeline: Well, the biggest thing is first, when people say AI, you know, and we have [00:21:00] to first remember with AI, let’s go to the first word with the, uh, with the I, intelligence, okay, before we get to artificial. You know, intelligence all begins with the ability to learn, uh, understand, reason, solve problems, and even adapt to new situations People are putting the AI in front of intelligence, but they never learned how to do it right themself in the beginning.

Brian Javeline: So there’s a, the big opportunity that we’re seeing is, is that there’s an entire set of people that are learning for the first time using AI. And I sit there and go, “Okay, so if you wanted to learn music and Mozart was sitting here, would you talk to him? If you wanted to learn art, would you talk to Michelangelo to say, ’Hey, show me something.’

Brian Javeline: Uh, if you wanna learn how to write, would you t- talk to Hemingway or are you gonna go to chat and say, ’Write me a story?’” And, and I think what’s happening is so many people are jumping to the tool, but they’re leveraging their [00:22:00] limited knowledge or their limited intelligence at the beginning on a topic to then expand on that limited e- experience.

Brian Javeline: And so what I see happening is so many people incl- I’m sure you’re getting emails like I am, where they come in, the communications, and I know it didn’t come from my customer. I see it immediately. It’s the opening sentence, and I’m like, “You never said that in your entire life to me, and now out of nowhere, you know, you’re communicating in a way that I know it’s not you.”

Brian Javeline: The problem is, is that when you’re doing that, and in marketing, we’re not gonna know in another six months to a year or two years that as the tools absorb everybody’s generic content, what makes you unique? And so taking a moment to sit and tell your story as you see it before using a tool to glamorize it gr- glamorize it, is the competitive advantage.

Brian Javeline: And people are getting a little bit over-rambunctious with how fast they jump to a tool to express themself [00:23:00] before finishing what they were thinking in the first place. And a lot of the people you know and I know, at the technical level, what they do is, if I’m, you know, if I’m dealing with Eric the remodeler, and you, you know, you give me 30, 40 pictures, and it’s, it’s a really beautiful project, but Eric the remodeler had no time to explain to me the intricacies of what those pictures are.

Brian Javeline: You’re now allowing a technical person to use a technical tool to decide what Eric was thinking, and then they’re using another tool to create the SEO and the GEO, and we’re making it permanent for one to five years out. So I tell all my clients and all my students, “Take a moment, as painful as it may be, to look at something and articulate Exactly what you see.

Brian Javeline: Because the next person who uses a tool, the more information they know before they begin to think in their prejudiced ways, is simply going to protect your brand one to five years out. And, you know, and I, I [00:24:00] know you guard yours very strongly, as I do mine. Um, when I post anything, I am concerned about 2028 and 2029.

Brian Javeline: That’s actually where my head is at. I don’t even care about, you know, the beginning of 2027, quite honestly. That’s already, that has been decided a long time ago. So if the technology changes, and as we’re talking there’s a new version of Chat coming out, a new version of Gemini coming out, and they’re just coming out quicker and quicker, I still wanna make sure that when that tool begins to come up with a new way to index, that the founding story of everything it’s learning about me is as crystal clear as humanly possible, and not interpreted by anyone but my, by me or my clients.

Brian Javeline: And that is a big thing, that it sounds easy off my tongue, but to get people to breathe for 5 to 10 minutes to explain what took them six months to a year to do, it’s amazing how it’s bec- people are agitated to give up 10 to 15 minutes of time to, to help solidify the foundation of what’s gonna happen a year from now.

Eric Fortenberry: Sure. [00:25:00] Now, you’ve, you’ve mentioned GEO a couple times. Can you, can you define that, and, and what does that mean and, and how is that, you know, compared to SEO?

Brian Javeline: Okay. Uh, wonderful question, and I’ll make sure that we, I’ll be explicit, okay? There’s, when people think of SEO and just using that for search engine optimization, as time evolved, there were many topics that came up, such as a title tag when you’re looking at a webpage and there’s the title of a, the individual page.

Brian Javeline: Similar to having a title of a book. You know, you’re walking down a Barnes & Noble and you’re just looking at titles. Every book has a title. Well, every webpage has a title, and it’s called a title tag. That, and the many other supporting topics around it, are related to what’s called search engine optimization.

Brian Javeline: And that particular topic alone we could just keep talking till the sun goes down, but to compare it to the GEO side, the generative engine optimization environment has, is [00:26:00] beginning to change because of how people are searching differently. And ask me, don’t have me forget, Eric, about the statistics of how people are searching, because that is rarely asked when people are talking about AI.

Brian Javeline: But When somebody type says a question like, “Oh, that’s a beautiful, uh, kitchen remodel. I wonder how much that cost,” or, “I wonder how long it cost,” that is a frequently asked question, and every industry has its own nuances of what could be deemed a frequently asked question. But let me share something with you that I pay attention to.

Brian Javeline: When you go to a website and you might see a story, let’s just keep that kitchen remodel, uh, into the forefront of our minds, and it shows a beautiful set of pictures with the drawings, what was done after, the pr- uh, and, and what the, maybe a customer video. But now there’s a little section and it says frequently asked questions.

Brian Javeline: What was, what would be [00:27:00] the cost of a project like this? What would be the timeframe of a project like this? What would be a challenge of a project like this? What a p- a lot of people don’t know that when you’re looking at it cosmetically on a screen, that does not mean just because it says frequently asked questions that it’s optimized for the AI world.

Brian Javeline: Depending on the code be- underneath the sheets, they may have not been using what’s called schema, which happens to talk to the AI world differently than the way the frequently asked question talk to the SEO world. And so using that example, somebody just showed me, “Oh look, we have frequently asked questions everywhere.”

Brian Javeline: And I said, “Yes, but why is every question with an H2 title and not a schema set up?” And the programmer said, “I don’t get what you mean.” That was the problem. So in their mind, they had a frequently asked question with the assumption that it was attacking both SEO and the GEO AI [00:28:00] world, and they were only attacking the, the traditional world as opposed to the emerging world.

Brian Javeline: And it’s a great simple analogy to use without making this become an overwhelmi- overwhelmingly technical conversation. But that is where there’s a, a convergence of traditional verse emerging, and when people are taking any topic, they need to take a moment just to appreciate that sometimes they’re the same and sometimes they’re different.

Brian Javeline: Sure. The FAQs is a great example where it hits two different topics, but it has to be implemented differently in order for bo- uh, both sides of the traditional search world and the emerging se- search world to both appreciate the frequently asked question.

Eric Fortenberry: So somebody who’s, let’s just say not a technical person, you know, like what, what, what should a contractor be doing to make sure that they can be found through both the traditional search and through these AI powered searches?

Brian Javeline: The wonderful thing is [00:29:00] everybody has an opportunity to be treating this time in life as a, the transition of rotary phones to, to cell phones. There’s-- People are moving and it’s happening whether we like it or not. And so To answer your question, first let me make sure I, I put the right weight towards the answer.

Brian Javeline: When people study how people are searching, there’s a big question that’s usually overlooked, which is the age demographic of the average homeowner in America, and the average, uh, let alone first-time homeowner. But when you look at the line, and depending where you are in the country, somewhere between 40 and 45 years old is the age demographic of where people are first beginning to own homes or then have a homes, homes.

Brian Javeline: But then when you look at the statistics of who is using search right now, the same age demographic is about, and I just did this [00:30:00] recently, so what, it’s why it’s fresh on my mind, between 22 and 28% of the 40 and over age group is using AI-oriented environments to search. Wonderful. So almost one-third is using the future, but two-thirds is using the traditional.

Brian Javeline: So people have a moment to breathe. It’s not like if you don’t have AI, you know, uh, enhancements that all of a sudden your company’s going out of business tomorrow. And so what I guide my clients to do, or students, I always say clients, but I should always say students, is take a moment to use this time to reevaluate your entire website as a foundation, not the social media, but the foundation, and look at what’s old that it’s time to go away.

Brian Javeline: It’s time to take, you know, it... Even me, I have a very hard time. There’s things I don’t like to let go of because it really, you know, just like I have that feeling that it’s, “Oh my God, it really is who I was.” But at the same time, it’s not really relevant [00:31:00] going forward. So I tell people, take a moment to first look at your story page by page and make a decision of what doesn’t need to be there anymore.

Brian Javeline: And a lot of times clearing your head of the, of the, the mess allows you to then say, “Great, that’s going, that’s going, that’s going. Now that I know what’s staying, let me, whether I’m gonna learn how to do it or I’m gonna pay someone else how to do it, let me have them optimize what I’m keeping for 2028.”

Brian Javeline: And it is painful. I wish I could tell you that, you know, there’s that magical ingredient that makes it not be painful. But unfortunately, people have stuff on their sites from years ago that just simply doesn’t represent who they are. But I want them to remember, the prospect who’s coming to you in January of next year doesn’t need to go down memory lane.

Brian Javeline: You know, here’s what I did 10 years ago. Here’s what I did 15 years ago. Look at your stuff and say, what three, four, five, six projects on this [00:32:00] service page represents the most? Don’t make people scroll, you know, indefinitely when there was a lot that could be taken away. Now that we know what’s been taken away Go ahead and guide, have somebody optimize it two ways.

Brian Javeline: Optimize it for SEO. There are just a lot of technical topics to talk about. And since the majority have usually next to no AI-oriented technology there, use it as a moment to say, “Well, what are the top few things?” Like, using images as a good example. Images tend to usually have weak SEO optimization, but if you have 20 images, it looks, uh, a little, uh, intimidating.

Brian Javeline: But if there’s five, now you could talk about it a little bit more flamboyantly ’cause it’s less information, but being talked about more appropriately for the future of AI search.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. No, that, that makes a lot of sense. You know, I’m curious your thoughts on, you know, again, we’re, we’re seeing a lot of people [00:33:00] starting to use AI for all sorts of various reasons.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, maybe they tell it to come up with some, you know, marketing strategy or write some marketing content, you know, blogs, images. Like, what, what are your thoughts on, you know, when, when people start to rely too heavily on this AI-generated content? You know, what, what do you think, you know, businesses are, are doing that, that could ultimately end up being a mistake, you know, when, when, when they just try to go all out with the AI and let it generate everything and do everything, and they just publish what the AI, you know, comes up with?

Eric Fortenberry: Like, what... Where, where are the downsides to that?

Brian Javeline: Well, they’re major, number one. So they’re major because when the SEO world originally evolved, people were doing a lot of copying and pasting, or copy-paste slight manipulations, and then after the entire internet got saturated in the SEO world, and all of the engines were trying to figure out, well, who should come first, second, and third, all of a sudden, there were all of these plagiarism tools that were out [00:34:00] there.

Brian Javeline: And so s- right now, the internet with the AI world is a battle for adoption. Get as many people using the tool at all costs as possible. They’re spending a ridiculous number of money to get people addicted to it. And as they do, if, if five people in a room are coming up with almost a very similar answer when it comes to a particular topic, they have to look at each other and go, “Why do I deserve to go fir- Uh, you know, why am I ranked first?

Brian Javeline: Because I came one minute before you?” It’s the identical story, and what’s happening is, is that, like image watermarking, they already have text watermarking taking place. And you could bet, in about a year or two or three when the market gets oversaturated, they’re gonna come out with this new ranking algorithm that punishes the people that had such generic content that, yes, they did it in the blink of an eye, but they were ruining the future.

Brian Javeline: And that goes right back to saying before we jump on [00:35:00] AI, take a moment to put as much of that information that’s really from you, and, and- To expand upon that, Eric, I even ask people when they’re making comments in their images, stop taking the comments, putting it into AI, and then putting it back into the comments.

Brian Javeline: It’s okay to talk as a contractor, you know? I’m not... No one’s hiring them as a, an author. I’m hiring them as a, an ability to show me everything you did before, during, and after, and just talk away. Don’t worry about the perfectly grammatical explanation of what you did for six months. And, and that’s a, a challenge that people are having, where they’re using the technology to clear their thoughts.

Brian Javeline: And I’m like, “Come on, you could build this stuff with your eyes closed.” You know? You can. Yeah. You’ve been doing it longer than me, so I know it has to be easy to explain it. Just take an extra moment with your coffee to get it out there, because that differentiator is what we’re gonna be talking about in a few years from now when, when people are too much in a rush to constantly do things faster, which [00:36:00] doesn’t mean they’re doing it better.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. So I wanna ask you this, ’cause, ’cause again, I, y- you alluded to it earlier. What, what do you think are realistic expectations for somebody who is, is wanting to start, you know, some, some marketing efforts, they wanna start seeing it producing, they wanna see the results. You know, what, what are the realistic timelines for contractors to, to keep in the back of their mind when, when, when en- entering into, you know, a, a, a marketing strategy here?

Eric Fortenberry: How, how quickly should they expect to see results, and, and what does it, what does it sorta look like over time?

Brian Javeline: Well, I, I, I, I would be hesitant to say quickly because that sets me up for forcing me to say something that they don’t wanna hear. So, uh, thank you for putting that little roadblock up there.

Brian Javeline: But I say when you’re lucky, three months to six months, and that’s when you’re lucky. Usually, we’re seeing people in about six months to a year, where all of a sudden things just start to get on a roll, and then [00:37:00] one year to two years out, that’s when there’s enough momentum going on that they deserve, and I always like to say that, that they deserve to see something.

Brian Javeline: You have to keep in mind there’s competitors out there that have been doing things for a while now. So just because somebody wakes up to say, “I deserve it today,” and they’re pounding their chest, doesn’t mean that the world’s converging in to say that you deserve to, to get ranked. You deserve to be sitting as among the top X amount appearing on whatever the search result may be.

Brian Javeline: So they should be thinking about building their brand for the long term. And, and luckily you had Milton, just because he was one of about 10 that I, I was at, so were you, y- we were both at the IBS show, and I was specifically speaking about Allocating less money, less percentage of gross as someone grows.

Brian Javeline: And you didn’t ask Todd this, but when, one thing that he wanted to mention was he has grown substantially, but using this year [00:38:00] as an example, he’s now under 2% of his gross sales is towards marketing. The average person who builds a brand, a strong brand in this industry, the average, based on what we do, and I can only study a few hundred, is between 1.5 and 3.25% of their marketing budget to, uh, to their gross sales towards marketing.

Brian Javeline: In the beginning, it was higher, but every year it goes down just a little bit. So they’re still spending more money going from, like, 1 million to 2 million to 3 million, but they don’t just set a number like 5% and say, “By default, take 5%, just throw it at marketing.” They’re like, “No, I’ll spend more, but I’m consciously lowering the percentage because my brand has gotten stronger.”

Brian Javeline: And again, it’s like maintaining health. I spend nothing to be healthy. Why? Because I’ve consciously gone out of my way to maintain my health. You know? Yeah. You get unhealthy, what do you do? Go to the doctor’s more. You go to the hospital. You pay for pills, blah, blah, blah. It’s the same thing with marketing.[00:39:00]

Brian Javeline: So I would say, uh, to, the short answer is three to six months when you’re lucky. But if you target building a strong brand for six months to a year, then after the year is up, all of a sudden things start to change. People, different types of people see the, the light of who you are when they come to your company because you are projecting a good image, and that’s totally independent of the search engines bringing that traffic to you in the first place.

Brian Javeline: So people mentally have to kinda put on two different helmets, you know? Sure. One for how do I look when the, when the, when somebody knocks on the door, independent of how do I get them to come to the front door as two separate steps. And if they have that in their heart, they’ll do very well for life.

Brian Javeline: But if they’re just looking to get the door to ring at all costs, that’s just short-term marketing objectives that, that cost a fortune to maintain as time goes by.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. No, that, that makes a lot of sense. You know, talking about investments, you know, I’m, I’m curious, when do you think it makes [00:40:00] sense for a, a contractor to, you know, try to do the marketing on themselves or hire, you know, a, a marketing person versus to find a partner, a marketing agency?

Eric Fortenberry: You know, wh- when, when do, when does it make sense to, you know, to, to try to do it yourself versus, you know, outsourcing to, to a marketing agency?

Brian Javeline: Depending on the structure of the company, uh, we’ve had, uh, success with everything, from people that are doing it themself to people that are hiring independent programmers independent of the paid ads, independent of the social, but they all ha- and then agencies too.

Brian Javeline: But they all have one thing in common. Everybody must go to the same bucket of information when they go to take the information. And so if somebody treats any one of those elements, whether it’s the programmer, social person, paid ads, um, agency person who might be doing blogs and other topics, if somebody’s running their own [00:41:00] objective, the image of the company is slowly getting distorted, whether you like it or not.

Brian Javeline: So I tell people that there’s, uh, and it’s unique because I have some people that shockingly, uh, the husband will be doing his thing. The, the wife is really, really talented technically, and they see it. They don’t understand what the husband does all day, but they’re very talented technically. So they take the classes, and all of a sudden the wife will be like, “I could do it, and if you look at my local competitors,” key el- key element, “if you look at my local competitors, I know I could do better.”

Brian Javeline: So in that particular circumstance, because the wife was technically inclined, the husband’s filling in all the blanks about the business, and the competitors are rather weak, the wife is able to build something, and the business just keeps going and going based on what she does passively on the weekend to update the technology.

Brian Javeline: Other people, not so fortunate. They might have some seriously strong competitors, and they can’t lose the [00:42:00] time to learn the technology. And that’s where I would, I would say is that once you know who your competitors are and see if they’re strong, you may not wanna give up six months to a year on learning the technology.

Brian Javeline: Yeah. Mm. And then it’s smart to hook up with any, you know, individual programmer or agency. They all have, you know, I’m sure you know many. I mean, we both do. And they all have their own unique styles of what they wanna sell to, how much they wanna charge. Sometimes it’s out of the league for many small companies, but There’s always going to be an answer, whether it’s domestic or, you know, Indeed or something like that.

Brian Javeline: And, and, and it is a case-by-case-

Eric Fortenberry: Sure ...

Brian Javeline: decision based on the company, um, where they are in their business model, how much money. You know, you and I tend to think we’re a little bit more entrepreneurial warriors, so we see things a little bit differently on how we, you know, what we’re willing to do when there’s no money versus what we’re willing to do when we have the money.

Brian Javeline: And I think there’s, um... It, it’s a personal decision. It’s not a perfect here’s the answer to- Sure ... [00:43:00] without knowing the company and who the competition is that they’re trying to, uh, get opportunities from.

Eric Fortenberry: That makes sense. So I mean, you’ve, you’ve watched a lot of contractors grow over the years. Like, i- is there anything in particular that, that you think separates the ones who, who break through and are constantly taking the business to the next level versus the ones who, who just plateau?

Brian Javeline: F- for me, on the marketing side, they just accept it as part of the business and they start to see how opportunistic the marketing is. They, the light comes behind their head about, “Wow, I am a living, breathing story. I now understand that.” And once they just understand that every day they wake up and they make dreams happen, they fix problems.

Brian Javeline: And even me, honestly, I’ve been doing this for so long and I do a weekly quick tip. I’m now up to 430 or 440 weekly quick tips. I still have to hesitate for a second on what am I gonna say next, because it just keeps going and [00:44:00] going, and I need my customer issues to help stimulate me as the next topic.

Brian Javeline: These people are out there all day seeing things before it happens, doing things while it’s happening. And so once they see that they’re a mark- they are a marketing machine by default. It’s just do they agree that they’re gonna be a marketing machine? But their life is one, and that’s part of my ads that I do too, talking about that they luck out.

Brian Javeline: Their, um, their life is an opportunity to package and market incorrectly. If they believe it, one to five years out will be all of these people that I like to introduce to you guys once their business is rolling and now they need to manage it better. You know, my dream is to have them come to you, quite honestly, to manage the money, ’cause there’s just, they can’t do it on spreadsheets or whatever they were doing before they met you, you know?

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. Well, and that’s, you know, it brings up an interesting point. I mean, you know, I’ve seen a lot of people where, you know, they think they just, they, they need more leads, more leads, more leads, but they’re not in a position where they’re actually able to, to be responsive [00:45:00] to those leads and, and, and to do what they need to do to win those jobs.

Eric Fortenberry: So, you know, is there a notion of you have to be, you know, ready and, and able to turn around these proposals quickly and be responsive to, to win the jobs, or is it, is it all for nothing?

Brian Javeline: Well, uh, you, you also just said something perfect. You said more leads, more leads, more leads repetitively, which is wonderful, because my entire motto is s- strive for more quality leads and your life will change forever.

Brian Javeline: When, when you are i- not interrupted by the noise, it’s amazing when you spend an extra 30 minutes, hour, and two hours towards what you really want. And that’s why using that psychology of what you just said, a lot of people really want more leads. And I go, “No, you don’t.” Yes, I do. No, you don’t. You wanna have a lead come in that is really close to what you want.

Brian Javeline: You know, boy meets girl, right? There’s only how many... You know, I tell people, I g- I wanted to meet my wife to, you know, to have [00:46:00] kids and go live life and that type of thing. Meeting girls is one thing. Meeting a future wife is a different story. And it’s the same thing in business, that when you get the right opportunities coming It’s not an interruption anymore.

Brian Javeline: It becomes the business. It’s exciting when, when it is, but when you’re defending the garbage, it really could be taxing as time goes by that you’re not realizing the next time the phone rings for both of us, I really prefer it to be someone who says, “I wanna learn.” Yeah. I don’t wanna be convinced to learn.

Brian Javeline: I wanna learn. That’s ideal. But trying to convince them to learn, that, that’s just not my cup of tea, you know?

Eric Fortenberry: No. No, these are, these are all really good points, Brian, and you know, again, I, I, I appreciate everything you’ve shared with us today. I mean, you, you clearly have just a ton of wisdom and experience that, that you’re relying on, and you’ve seen what works, what doesn’t work.

Eric Fortenberry: You’ve seen when people take their eye off the ball, and so, you know, I just, I, I appreciate you sharing all this. As, as we wrap up here, I wanna kinda throw one, one, one last thing at you. I mean, like what, what is the best piece of advice that you would [00:47:00] give all of the builders and, and contractors that are listening today?

Eric Fortenberry: What, what’s one thing that they could do that could make a big impact for them?

Brian Javeline: Take a moment and realize everybody for the first time in a while is in the same boat. Same transition is taking place. The question is, are you gonna beginning to learn today, or are you gonna think about it at the end of next year and there’s a chance it might be too late for you?

Brian Javeline: Because then you’re gonna be playing massive catch-up. So planning in advance is a massive advantage at a time where many, many people are just about to get rid of their landline, and they’re gonna get a cellphone very soon. The question is, what day are you gonna do it knowing everybody will have a cellphone and no one will have a landline in about another year, and it’s that same equivalent that it’s happening right now.

Brian Javeline: And if you begin to transition seriously and just put it as part of your plan, 2028, [00:48:00] 2029, and beyond, you’re gonna be sitting very pretty while other people might just be withering, panicking, not knowing how to possibly catch up.

Eric Fortenberry: All right. There you have it, folks. Very great advice. You know, Brian Jablin here.

Eric Fortenberry: He’s with My Online Toolbox. You can find him in the JobTread marketplace, find him online. Definitely recommend reaching out to this guy. As you can tell, he is very passionate, very knowledgeable about marketing, and can help you grow your business. So thank you for coming on, Brian. Really appreciate it, and I look forward to seeing all the success you can bring the rest of our, our JobTread community here.

Brian Javeline: Thank you, Eric. Thank you so much.

Eric Fortenberry: Absolutely. Have a good one.

Brian Javeline: Thank you.

Eric Fortenberry: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don’t forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review.

Eric Fortenberry: And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com. We’d love to hear from you. I’m Eric Fortenberry, and [00:49:00] remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours