How Contractors Get Found Online, Straight From GoogleWith Jane Dzielski of Google

Eric: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I’m your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories

Eric: Welcome back everybody. Today I’m extremely excited. We have a very special guest. Jane Dzielski is a measurement specialist at Google. She is gonna share her insights and what she has seen going on in the home services industry. Jane has over a decade of experience helping businesses solve complex problems with data.

Eric: In her current role, she focuses on how companies can leverage Google tools to drive success. She’s a popular speaker through her company DataFizz, and discusses how consumer behavior is changing in response to economic, social, and cultural trends, and how businesses can leverage technology, including AI, to [00:01:00] respond to these shifts.

Eric: We’re so excited to have you joining us today, Jane. Welcome to Builder Stories

Jane Dzielski: Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here. This is, uh, not something I get to do very often, so always a thrill.

Eric: Awesome. Well, look, you know, I, I, I read a little bio about you, but why don’t you kinda tell us, you know, h-how did you, how did you get into, i-into this role at Google and sorta maybe even before that?

Eric: Like what, what led you to, to the real estate and home services industries?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So really good question. I think I have a bit of an unconventional path. So I studied economics and statistics in school, so that’s my background. Um, I used that, uh, kind of knowledge to look at really big sets of data and try to make sense of them and understand if I can spot patterns or relationships that we can leverage to make businesses perform better.

Jane Dzielski: Um, from, you know, that kind of background, that’s how I got started in my first role at Google, where I was helping companies primarily in what we called the home services sector. So that would be like national businesses that offer, uh, things [00:02:00] related to real estate, so like real estate aggregators, uh, home maintenance platforms, so something like a Thumbtack.

Jane Dzielski: Um, just also, uh, h-home security, things related to car maintenance, lots... a, a very, very broad topic, but generally like things that you kinda need to do as a homeowner, as a, an adult in, in the United States. Um, so what I would do is I’d really get to be embedded with a lot of different companies and understand how they run, how they operate, what their customers are looking for, and often kind of what challenges they have.

Jane Dzielski: And my role would be to understand the business, to look at their business data, and to look at what we know from our Google data. So Google’s a really valuable platform for understanding what people are thinking about, the kinda stuff they wanna buy, the things that they’re worried about. Between Google Search, obviously, and YouTube, we have a lot of insight into what’s on the mind of an average American consumer.

Jane Dzielski: Um, I’ve been at Google since 2017, so I’ve, I’ve taken on some different positions within that time, worked with a lot of different companies, a lot of different [00:03:00] industries. Uh, so right now I’m more focused on retail, but I have found in general that when we’re thinking about what’s going on with the consumer, that affects all of our decisions, from the really, really big ones, like whether I’m going to remodel my home or sell my home, right down to the type of paper towels that I’m gonna buy and whether I’m gonna buy them by going to a Walmart or if I’m going to get a subscription so that they automatically get delivered to my door.

Jane Dzielski: So, uh, the kind of same patterns that are, that are operating around us at all times affect that broad range of decisions. Um, since starting at Google, I also have my, my own separate company now called DataFizz, and that’s really where I’m speaking at conferences, meeting a lot of people, uh, who are actually practitioners.

Jane Dzielski: So I, I don’t engage with those people that much in my day job at Google. It really is often just large data sets. Um, so those opportunities are really, really interesting, ’cause I can understand how these things are affecting people in those very granular levels on very local businesses. So that’s a little bit how I got to be here.

Jane Dzielski: Unlike a lot of your, uh... Yes, I actually don’t know that much about phys- building physical [00:04:00] spaces, um, but I have found that a lot of people in this field find my perspective useful.

Eric: Yeah, that’s, that’s really awesome. You know, I, I can only imagine the amount of data that Google has that, uh, there’s, there’s probably a lot of opportunity to go, uh, study it and, and try to better understand it, and then figure out how can you turn that, you know, that, that, that data into information that can be actual insightful for, for businesses.

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So that’s exactly kind of what we’re trying to do. So it often, um, manifests in kind of unexpected ways. So when people are coming to Google, you know, they might be looking for a toothbrush, or they might be looking for someone to help them sell their home. But ultimately, we’re able to triangulate, you know, between where they are, the types of questions they’re asking, you know, questions that, uh, more broadly, when we see these trends pa- these patterns change over time, it kind of helps us get a pulse that we can understand when we look at other third-party research sources or other patterns that we just know are going on.

Jane Dzielski: You know, things like, uh, the Federal Reserve of Economic data. Like, how does that [00:05:00] change the way people are looking to buy things? So some examples recently as far as kind of changing be- consumer behavior is that, uh, uh, obviously a, a big, uh, a, a big factor is the use of AI as people are doing their research for products.

Jane Dzielski: So I’d say more and more I’ve kind of watched an evolution happening, where the research before you make a big decision is very much kind of part of that process of, like, getting to the goal of having accomplished something or buying something. Like, making sure that you feel really good about that decision is so important, and be able to have that sense of being a really, like, savvy person who understands the inputs into price, whether or not this is a good value.

Jane Dzielski: So even if it’s more expensive, people are often willing to pay that premium if they can feel really confident that they understand what they’re buying and why they’re paying that premium

Eric: Yeah, that’s, that’s super interesting. And, you know, again, kinda jumping straight into the AI, I mean, you know, I, I know that, you know, that, that has just caused drastic, you know, changes probably from, [00:06:00] from, from all fronts for, for everyone from, you know, the end consumer to, to the businesses, to the companies that are having to manage all of this data.

Eric: You know, what, what would you say have been, like, the biggest trends that you all have seen, you know, over the last couple years that, that, that you think are gonna make the biggest impact for, you know, construction businesses and, and home services?

Jane Dzielski: So I think one thing that’s really important to notice, um, is just the acceleration at which these tools are coming online and improving.

Jane Dzielski: I think for a long time we’ve had a really good time, like, dunking on, you know, for lack of a better word, how dumb AI can be, and it is a little bit fun to kind of like put something into a tool and have it come up with a solution that is absolutely nonsensical that no human being would ever propose.

Jane Dzielski: Uh, and I think a lot of what I’m focused on now is when we’re working with AI, and this is again useful in terms of what I understand from how people are using Google platforms and how people are using, [00:07:00] uh, these tools with their businesses or in their personal lives, is that the prompt is really important, and there’s certain things that AI is not good at, partly not good at yet, and sometimes just, like, never gonna be as good at.

Jane Dzielski: So a really great example is AI can’t spell. So if you go into, uh, a video platform and you wanna say, like, “Make me a video and, you know, put this, this name here or use this pr-” it will always spell it wrong. And in order to correct that, it’s actually quite simple. You have to say, you know, “Make me a video where You know, a, a dinosaur is, is driving a Ferrari, and like, you know, spell the word Ferrari like this.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and then it will do it. But- Yeah ... you know, you normally wouldn’t have to e-explain that. And I think I’ve, I’ve heard a lot of people kind of give some good analogies about like, you know, AI is not a director at your company, it’s an intern. You need to train it, and you need to really focus, put that time into understanding how to engage with it and how to talk with it.

Jane Dzielski: So, um, you know, for example, last football [00:08:00] season, I joined a fantasy football league with my colleagues. This is something I really love doing. Um, and this year I used Gemini to help me make decisions in my lineup every week, and I kind of wrote about what that was like. And Gemini had some interesting perspectives.

Jane Dzielski: I could see how it was aggregating. But really my goal there was I wanted to understand the biases in the model and how that inf- affected the outputs that it made, because I think that’s something that more practitioners need to get used to, is that our models are trained based on the human inputs, which are biased.

Jane Dzielski: So how do we correct for those biases rather than kind of taking things at face value and understanding or accepting that, you know, the system is saying this, the AI decided this, when in fact the AI decided that because that’s how you trained it.

Eric: Yeah. No, that, that makes a lot of sense. It, it’s, it’s interesting how there’s, there has been this like, you know, it, it, it definitely feels like the AI’s gotten a lot smarter, you know, over, over the last several months, and like it’s, it’s becoming, you know, a much better tool.

Eric: I, I remember early on we’re, you know, kind of just even asking it like simple math questions, [00:09:00] and it just couldn’t, you know- Terrible at answering ... it may be 6 out of 10 times it got it right. Yeah. But sometimes it, it got it wrong, and it’s just like, how is that even possible?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. No, exactly. And I think that is like when I, I think about how businesses are onboarding this technology, I think that patience piece is really key.

Jane Dzielski: Um, one of the leaders in my organization, S-Sean Downing, you know, he says that AI right now is the crappiest it’s ever gonna be. Uh, and, and I think we see that a lot of like the-- if you tried to adapt some technology, uh, two years ago, but you didn’t really have the hours to put into training it, into getting it set up, into training your staff on how to operate with it and how, you know, they can use it, you probably didn’t really see much of a payoff.

Jane Dzielski: And I think that, that definitely stopped a lot of adver- or a lot of, um, companies, a lot of, uh, a, a lot of leaders in those positions from moving forward. Uh, which, you know, I get it. I, I, I think to some degree a lot of companies are essentially making AI homework that they’re giving to their employees, [00:10:00] and they’re saying, you know, “You learn to use these things that are clunky and they’re difficult, and, you know, the, the, the benefit isn’t really for you, it’s more for me.”

Jane Dzielski: And I think the success I’ve seen is when companies and when leaders can say like, “I’ve got this tool that’s gonna take away the worst part of your job.” And that’s really where you see, uh, people who are willing to invest the time because, you know, uh, we all have parts where... I, I love my job, but there’s definitely parts of it that I really don’t like.

Jane Dzielski: And how can we make it so that AI is doing those parts so I can do the parts that I enjoy more?

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. That definitely seems like there’s a lot of, you know, kind of fear about, you know, is, is this gonna replace a ton of people, you know- Mm-hmm ... and, and, and the need for them and, and, and what it’s gonna do to the workforce.

Eric: And, you know, I’m curious. I mean, what, what is, uh, what, what is your thought? I mean, do, do you think- Yeah ... that there are gonna be, you know, entire industries or, or certain positions that, you know, we’re gonna just wake up one day and there’s just not really a need for?

Jane Dzielski: So I think that AI is like lots of other, [00:11:00] um, advancements in this, this area.

Jane Dzielski: So for example, like, you know, I live in Oakland, California. Uh, um, my office is in San Francisco, so if, you know, if I’m going out, if I’m gonna drive over the Bay Bridge, there’s a line where I go under with my FastPass, and there are still booths where human beings used to sit in that booth and, and take money from people.

Jane Dzielski: Um, that, that job doesn’t exist anymore. And, you know, from... I think the-- from that perspective, like actually sitting in a booth and breathing car exhaust all day is not a good job for a human being.

Eric: Yeah.

Jane Dzielski: Um, there, there’s nobody who should be doing that. I think the, the challenge that we really need to focus on is like what is the replacement?

Jane Dzielski: ’Cause we can’t just take away jobs and workforces without giving them other things to do. And I would say with AI, it’s actually in a really good position because the, the work that you can do instead of the work that AI is doing is so much more valuable. So an example I share often is that I started my career building econometric models.

Jane Dzielski: So I’m gonna talk a little bit about sta-statistics for one minute, but I prom-- it, it, I promise it will not [00:12:00] be painful, and it’ll be short. But basically, um, the type of models I was running, the way you would do this is you would have these massive datasets. I would put my data into the model. I would type some, you know, messages to say like, you know, “Here are my inputs.

Jane Dzielski: Here’s the way I want you to model it,” and I would click Run. And then, you know, I would go get a cup of tea or a cookie or something because that’s gonna run for 10 minutes, and then I come back, and I look at what the output is, and I decide if I like the output, or I decide if I wanna change it. So then I, you know, take that output, I make some changes to my inputs, and I click Run, and then I, you know, go do something else for 10 minutes ’cause that’s gonna run.

Jane Dzielski: And I would do this for literally weeks until I got a model that I was happy with. Um, and now we have tools where essentially you kinda put in all your inputs, it runs every iteration, it decides kind of the things that it thinks you most likely wanna see, and it’ll kind of show you like the top five, and then I pick from the top five.

Jane Dzielski: Hmm. Now, why that’s important is that the point of my job was not to run the model. The point of my job was [00:13:00] to take the data and understand what decisions we should make and what things we should change based on what the data said. That part’s actually hard, and that part’s actually what AI can’t replace.

Jane Dzielski: The replaceable part is not actually the objective, and I, and I think that’s such a important thing with AI is like where can we replace the task That gives us more time to focus on the objective because my job now is much more fulfilling. I would much rather sit with my, uh, the customers that I work with and talk about strategically, like, “What are we gonna do with this information?

Jane Dzielski: How can we actually make this usable? How can we actually make this happen?” Rather than being lo- locked in a windowless room and, you know, clicking run every 10 minutes for weeks at a time.

Eric: Sure. That’s interesting. So I’m, I’m curious, like let’s, let’s maybe, let’s frame it and, and talk about in regards to like marketing, right?

Eric: So a lot of- Mm-hmm ... contractors are figuring, you know, tr- trying to figure out, how can I get, you know, to show up in Google? How can, you know- Yeah ... when, when, when my, you know, my, my customer, my potential customer is, is searching, you know, for, [00:14:00] for something, you know, they, they, they, they often think they just need to, to stuff a bunch of keywords into a bunch of text on their website, and then that will eventually somehow kind of help, help Google find them- Yeah

Eric: and start servicing them. Like, you know, where, where would you say like, you know, AI is gonna kind of change that, that, that notion of SEO and, you know, I know there’s the new term, the, the AIO, like kinda how, how is all of this kind of, you know, shifting, uh, you know, right, right now?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So I would say a, a big factor here is really, uh, moving away from keywords.

Jane Dzielski: Uh, what Google is, has gotten very, very good at is identifying that customer’s objective, and I think- If I were in, uh, you know, the, the kind of the situation you’re describing where, you know, I wanna show up on Google, really think about what the actual objective is. I think very few customers would say their objective is to get a lot of people onto their website.

Jane Dzielski: Now, that can be a step towards the objective of [00:15:00] getting more clients or booking more, uh, con- consultations, or doing more site visits, or, I’m sorry, doing, like, not website visits, but, like, site visits to a, to a physical building site. Um, ’cause that’s really important because when we think about, like, “Well, how do I get the right keywords so that I show up and then people come to my website?”

Jane Dzielski: That’s actually less important. You would actually rather show up less frequently in front of a customer that really wants your service-

Eric: Hmm ...

Jane Dzielski: rather than show up as much as possible and hope that you kind of get in front of the right person. So that’s where our tools like AIO, uh, are really, really valuable because it’s allowing customers to describe more clearly what they’re really looking for because not everyone is a, the right fit for every construction company.

Jane Dzielski: If you are looking for, you know, a deck, you actually, if you’re a design build company that mostly does kitchens, you actually don’t really need to show up in front of that person. And what AIO is kind of letting us do is it’s really getting more conversational. So one of the patterns that we’re seeing is that by and large across Google, very long queries are [00:16:00] growing much faster than shorter ones.

Jane Dzielski: So if you think about, think about yourself using Google 20 years ago versus yourself using fi- Google 15 years ago versus 10 years ago. So what people typically did is you’d kind of type in, like, the title of a book, or you’d type in, uh, you know, a couple nouns and maybe a location and know that, you know, the, the system can kind of put those things together.

Jane Dzielski: Now what you really wanna do is type in sentences that describe exactly what you’re looking for. So instead of saying, like, “What’s the best electric toothbrush?” What people are doing is they’re saying, “What’s the best electric toothbrush that is, doesn’t use a battery, that is best for people who are traveling, who live, you know, south of the nor- south of the Arctic Circle?”

Jane Dzielski: Something like that. Like, very, very specific about, like, what’s the product that I really need, and then we can parse it out. Um, because in that case, showing up for that type of search, if you’re able to kind of fit that, that person’s exact desire, that’s so much more powerful than showing up 100 times for somebody who doesn’t really know what they want [00:17:00] or may not really be a good fit for your business to begin with.

Eric: Yeah, it seems like that would even hurt you, too. Like, if, if Google sees a bunch of people coming to your website and immediately leaving, and they just think it’s not relevant, not important, like, not, not the right fit. Like, I mean, ultimately you’re, you’re, you’re getting sort of docked for that, right?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So, um, you know, and I would say, like, I’m not authorized to speak on the, the Google organic algorithm, but it is true that if people are not, uh ... You know, one of the ways that we decide who shows up is the website experience. So if there are indicators that the website experience isn’t satisfactory, uh, then that will long-term not benefit you.

Jane Dzielski: And, and again, like, it, it really comes down to, like, what’s your actual objective? Like, very few businesses is the objective to get people to the website.

Eric: And so when you say website experience, are we talking about, like, how fast the website loads, if it, if it loads on mobile versus desktop? Like, what, what kind of, how, how many- Yeah

Eric: interactions there are on the website?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So that I would say, like, now load time, mobile, those are all table [00:18:00] stakes. If you haven’t adapted to people making big decisions on their mobile phones, like, you are behind. You really need to, to catch up, um, because, yes, people just expect fast web pages. They expect them to load quickly.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and people will leave experiences if the, the site takes too long to load. So those are very critical operational, uh, elements that, that need to be in place regardless of what you’re selling or what your business model is. Now, beyond that, things that are useful, you know, and I, I think a lot of, um, a lot of things that maybe, you know, to

Jane Dzielski: I think a minute ago you kind of talked about, like, bounce rates of, like, people coming to the site and then leaving immediately without going further into the site. Now, that doesn’t actually have to be a bad thing. If you are driving people to the right part of your webpage where they get the information they need, it’s okay that they, you know, technically bounce.

Jane Dzielski: So that’s not necessarily a, a bad interaction or something gone wrong. Um, I would say the, the things that are beneficial are- Once [00:19:00] people get to your website, are they able to easily find the information they need, or are they able to kind of take steps to get it? So things like, you know, having a lot of different options in order to get more information.

Jane Dzielski: Um, so, you know, being able to make a phone call, but being able to text or send an email. Uh, we know that kind of that, that call only interface is, is not, uh, is not the f- preferred method of communication for a lot of customers. Um, other factors are, that can, can be at play can really be like making sure that you’re clear on your website about what your offering is.

Jane Dzielski: I think sometimes, um, you know, from an advertising perspective, there can be this belief that you want to, you know, be as broad, kind of force people to reach out to you for more information. That’s actually not how most people really want to operate. So they’d actually prefer that you give them some of the information.

Jane Dzielski: They can decide upfront if they are a good fit for your business. You know what, uh, an example I would say is like, uh, and again, this is my opinion, not as a builder, but as a person who specializes in, in customer [00:20:00] behavior, is that if you are offering services, put a ballpark figure of, you know, how much something costs on your website.

Jane Dzielski: It doesn’t have to be, like, all-encompassing. You can put some caveats around it, but it’s actually really beneficial for you and the person on the website. If your floor is way above their ceiling, it’s not a good fit, and it’s okay. Mm-hmm. That’s totally fine for, for both people in this party, but it is helpful ’cause it, it saves both people’s time.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and again, it’s like you don’t have to, you don’t have ... You can say, like, “Here’s a, a picture of a bathroom we did, and, you know, this could cost between X and Y,” just to give people a little bit of a sense, ’cause something that we see a lot, uh, when it comes to home services, when it comes to people coming to Google, one of the most important things they search is cost.

Jane Dzielski: Mm-hmm. Um, and today, I would say Google has done a good job in kind of filling in some of that information of saying, like, “Depending on where you live, this is what we often see for a bathroom remodel.” Um, and, and that kind of just baseline helps people, ’cause some people honestly aren’t sure [00:21:00] if they’re talking about a $5,000 project or a $50,000 project.

Jane Dzielski: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and I’ve often seen, you know, when I, uh, look at survey data from, uh, uh, many organizations, but people often say, like, “Yes, I’m planning a bathroom remodel, and my budget is $800.” Now, I would say, like, you know, there’s, depending on your skills, there’s, you, you can go to Home Depot, you can buy products that you need.

Jane Dzielski: You can do a lot of things yourself, but I think very few contractors are offering services that are $800. Um, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Eric: No. You’re, you’re right.

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So, um, I would say, uh, the more you can Give people information and, you know, you’re the, you’re the business owner, you know the types of questions that they ask.

Jane Dzielski: How can you be of service to them with your website so that they don’t necessarily have to, uh, reach out or, or force them to call you to get some very basic information?

Eric: So where, where is Google coming up with like, you know, how, how much does a bathroom remodel cost in my area? Like, I mean, how, how would it even, you know, know that [00:22:00] information?

Jane Dzielski: So a lot of this comes from things like Google Reviews. So, you know, if you have a Google My Business profile, people leave reviews on that. Um, more and more, uh, people are putting information about cost. Um, and I think again, it comes to that fact of like before people took on a project, the most important que- or one of the most important factors for them was how much it was gonna cost, and if it was hard for them to find that information, they tend to be more forthcoming about what it ended up costing.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and again, like construction is complicated, often prices increase. Um, so there’s many, many sources, but I’d say reviews are a really, really important one. Um, for companies that are willing to, uh, publish averages, that can be helpful. Google also can, you know, look at scholarly papers, so things like, uh, studies that are done by the Bureau of Labor Statistics will look at things like the cost of home repairs over time.

Jane Dzielski: So, like that information is also accessible.

Eric: Gotcha. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve noticed, and I- I’m not sure exactly when this, when this started, but now like, I mean, if you go search for, you know, I’m looking for, you know, a [00:23:00] plumber, you know, there, there’s now kind of this like sponsored listing of, of, of a couple different businesses, and then they have a get quote button next to them.

Eric: Is, is that a new, uh, feature, or has that always been there?

Jane Dzielski: Hmm, good ... Yeah, so there are- The, the, there are always changes. Uh, so that I would say is relatively new to have that button right there. So some of the changes that we have recently, so if you’ve, you know, to that point, like, there’s different types of listings that you can-- that we support on Google.

Jane Dzielski: So being able to, uh, provide more information generally is just helpful for that experience. So that, uh, I think what you’re describing was originally, I believe it was a local service listing, was what it was called. Yeah. And the original iteration was basically like, you know, you could have a sponsored listing, and there was a phone call.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and, or you could like text or call, and it was basically like if somebody made the phone call, then, you know, you paid a dollar or whatever it is. Um, that was the very first way that that was kind of introduced, and over time, that, uh, area has [00:24:00] developed to demonstrate more of the things that are more interesting c- to consumers.

Jane Dzielski: So to your point there of like Google gets feedback on everything we build, and that’s information that we’re kind of gathering in order to make those products better. Because at the end of the day, Google is only a useful or, or is only a, a company if people are willing to use it. So being able to kind of fulfill that need and say like, the most important people have right off the bat is the, the quote.

Jane Dzielski: So replacing that instead of, you know, with- Mm-hmm ... the hours that you’re open or your address, that request- Yeah ... to quote can be deemed as more important. Um, for a lot of these project, products, again, there are organic listings. There are paid listings. I also don’t work directly with this product, so I, this is, um, I, I don’t wanna say that this is the the official, uh- Sure

Jane Dzielski: communication from Google. But part of that often comes up to that cuss- specific customer and what we think will work best. So something that might be easy to understand would be like, um, an, if you ever are looking for a product, let’s say [00:25:00] like headphones, and you’ll see, uh, ads with like pictures on them.

Jane Dzielski: Sometimes you’ll see something that says like fast delivery, or you might see something with like the rating on it, and depending on the customer in that moment, you can decide whether you’re gonna show the rating or the speed of the delivery or if it’s on sale. So those are kind of all possibilities that we can plug and play, and the, the reasoning is there is that- People need different things in different moments, and being able to customize your ads by having those options available makes a better experience for the customer.

Eric: Yeah, that makes sense. And so what I’m hearing, though, is that it’s important for, you know, for, for these home services businesses to, you know, to, to really try to, to, to include the information that the customer really wants to know, which we all know is about price. You know, what- Exactly ... give, give us some sort of a ballpark.

Eric: Give us some sort of a, you know, a, a range or an indication on, like, we understand that, that you’re an interested, you know, potential, you know, [00:26:00] buyer for, for our construction services or whatever it may be. And, like, we need to kinda give them, you know, some information so that Google will say, “Hey, we understand, you know, that, that this person’s looking for your services, you know, but we also know that there’s gonna be more information,” which if price is the objective a lot of the time, then they’re gonna favor those companies who, who have more of that information, and then maybe even a, you know, request a quote or get, you know, get a price or schedule a call, you know, those types of, of, of actions.

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. Um, and, uh, that’s exactly right. And so if you think about, like, the types of things that people might come to Google for, um, and the types of things they search for, if you are a premium design build forum, you probably are not a fit for somebody who’s looking for cheap bathroom remodel. Uh, and so if that were, you know, if somebody is...

Jane Dzielski: And more and more people are providing these details in their search. They’re saying things like y- you know, landscaping under $1,000 a month or pool maintenance under XYZ. So the more that you can have that information available, either on your [00:27:00] website or, you know, if you have, you know, really satisfied customers, you can ask them to mention that in their review, then that’s gonna make it easier for Google to recognize that match between customers and providers.

Eric: Hmm. So you’ve, you’ve talked about Google reviews a couple times here, and I mean, ob- obviously they’re, they’re an extremely important signal, you know, to, to, to Google and others that, hey, you know, they’re, they’re, we, we either got, you know, a business that’s delivering great service or, or a business that’s, that’s underperforming.

Eric: You know, ha- has, have AIs, are, are they able to, you know, read and consume and, and follow along with all of the, the Google reviews that get posted every day, or are some of them able to, to read it better than others? ’Cause I think there’s been a lot of mixed, you know, uh, kind of u- understandings on, like, what, what AI, you know, can, can Claude, can Chat- Mm-hmm

Eric: can Gemini, can, can Grok, like, can they actually read those Google reviews or not?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So really good question, and the answer is sort of. So when we think about the, the elements of a review, there’s always one section that is, like, the number of stars. That is very easy [00:28:00] for machines to read. They can really understand, you know, what is 3.4 out of 5.

Jane Dzielski: That’s, that’s clear. Now, as far as the text, that can be a little bit more complex. Um, and I would say this is another, uh, the case again, like- a year ago versus two years ago versus today, the answer is closer to yes. And I would say the, the tools that are most successful at it, it really is about that volume.

Jane Dzielski: So if you have three reviews, uh, you know, you can kind of-- it’s, you know, and it’s not crazy to think if you have three reviews, one of them might be really bad. If you have ten thousand reviews, some of them are definitely really bad. You know, there’s no way you get to that number without some bad ones.

Jane Dzielski: But being able to parse kind of in aggregate what our people are saying, so what are the words that are coming up repeatedly? AI, AI tools and algorithms are e-able to do that. That is a, you know, that’s just pattern detection. That’s exactly what these systems are built for. Things that it is not good at are slang or turns of phrase.

Jane Dzielski: Um, when you think about, uh, [00:29:00] kind of the ways over time, think about all the different ways that we can describe things as good, all the words that we use to describe things as good is a massive, massive range. So things like customer service, we can say, like, “Here’s a word that’s really important,” and we can understand a couple adjectives around that.

Jane Dzielski: Now, when it comes to, you know, ways that we could describe our appreciation for something, sometimes that praise could actually be, uh... I’m trying to think of, like, a good example. Um, I won’t I’m not gonna swear, but if you think about, like, if somebody says that this product is the S word, that’s really bad.

Jane Dzielski: If somebody says this product is the S word, that’s actually good. So, like, those are the kind of things that can trip up an AI model. Right. That might not be an example that you wanna put in the podcast, so I can think of another one. But, like, the ... I’d say the, the things that it can do, it c- ... that AI is able to do is detect patterns and aggregations of what types of words are showing up more than other types of words.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and so typically I would say, you know, if you’re looking at Google [00:30:00] reviews, what, uh, you know, what models, what, you know, any ... If you’re using ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever it is, it’ll typically kind of give you a range and say, like, “For the good reviews, these are the words that come up. For the bad reviews, these are the words that come up.”

Jane Dzielski: Hmm. So that’s typically, I’d say, where we are right now. I think that’ll continue to evolve and continue to be able to detect nuances in a, a more sophisticated way, but that’s where we’re at today.

Eric: So when, when contractors are asking their, their customers for a review, would you, would you recommend that they should, like, kind of give a little bit of guidance in terms of, you know, what sort of information they might include in the review, how to structure it, kind of things like that?

Eric: Or is it just, “Hey, would you mind leaving us a review,” and just kind of leave it up to them and just let it kind of naturally come out? Or, like, I mean, are there ways to sort of optimize your reviews for AI?

Jane Dzielski: So I would say, um, this is a little bit of a ... Ideally, yeah, you give them a template and they would fill it in.

Jane Dzielski: That would be, like, really readable [00:31:00] by AI. Now, as humans, when we kind of detect that template, we don’t like it and we don’t trust it as much. Hmm. So I think the, the key thing here is that you ... The f- most important person to serve is the human being who’s reading reviews about your company. So those interview reviews need to be genuine.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and you know, you’ve read fake reviews before. People can detect when, uh, when it’s not sincere. So I would say from that perspective, I don’t recommend a template. What I would recommend is if you have a customer who’s happy or they say, you know, during the project something happens and they say, “You know, we really appreciated how you, you handled XYZ,” or, “We’re really thankful that you brought us that option that ended up costing less,” or, “We’re

Jane Dzielski: You know, we really appreciate that you, you know, came back and said that the, the sh- the shipping cost less than you thought and you gave us a refund,” that would be a good moment to say, like, “Could you mention that in a review for me?” Hmm. Because it’s genuine feedback. It wasn’t prompted, and that’s the type of information that people value when they think about what types of contractors do I wanna work with.

Jane Dzielski: I wanna work with somebody who, you know, has good [00:32:00] judgment and who, you know, will, will help me find ways to save money even though it doesn’t necessarily benefit them right away. Um, so that’s what I would say is the best approach, is like- If, if you are brought up a specific piece of feedback that you know other customers would find valuable, ask them to put it in their review.

Eric: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s great feedback. And you know, I know, uh, like the, the, the Google Business Profile, you know, I think it used to be called Google My Business or whatever, like- Yeah ... I mean, h- how does that come into play? Because I feel like a lot of people don’t really understand, you know, the, the value of creating that listing and then, you know, continually updating it.

Eric: Like, d- does that make a big impact for them?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So I think- People come to Google for all types of things in all parts of their life, and I think sometimes an overlooked part of the reason people come to Google is for very, very basic information. So things like, how late is this store open? What is the address?

Jane Dzielski: How do I get there? So, like, h- having your Google Business Review, you know, available on Maps is really important because people have to know how to get [00:33:00] there. They’re just checking to see what time you’re gonna close. Or, you know, they know that the one in the, in their town sells XYZ products, but they’re not sure if the one, you know, half an hour away does.

Jane Dzielski: Uh, that kind of simple information that you have available about, you know, being able to say, like, “These products are in stock at these locations. This location’s open till XYZ,” is really simple information that people are looking for in order to make their lives more convenient. Uh, so if we’re thinking about, you know, depending on where your offices are located, uh, you know, you can say that we’re open till these hours, but after, you know, we’re closed for a lunch break.

Jane Dzielski: That type of information just really makes sure that people are, are not showing up at a time if they just need to check in on something quickly while there might not be anybody there to greet them. So I, I think even... I, I think sometimes people overlook the basics as far as, like, the Google My Business profile of, like, “Well, it’s there.

Jane Dzielski: What do I need it for?” Like, just think about why somebody might be looking it up, um, and it’s often for those kind of simple reasons. So, like, why do people go to Maps? Uh, you know, one thing I like to share is that a surprising number of people go [00:34:00] to google.com and type facebook.com, and then click on the link to go to facebook.com.

Jane Dzielski: So, you know, people really are coming to Google for absolutely everything. So thinking about tho- those really simple use cases is really important.

Eric: Sure. So, you know, again, I, I, I often find a lot of contractors, especially kind of the ones that are earlier on- Mm-hmm ... you know, creating, creating their businesses, like, they’re, they’re, you know, one, they’re, they’re usually overwhelmed, and they’re probably trying to wear every hat, and they don’t have, you know, a marketing team and people to, like, help them sort of understand, you know, how important it is and, and, and the strategy for marketing and creating content.

Eric: You know, when, when you look at, you know, all of the different avenues of where you can create content, whether it’s, you know, on your website, you know, creating blog posts or new pages or, you know, it’s creating content on, you know, on, on, on Facebook and, and Twitter or X and, you know, Instagram and all that, and we got YouTube.

Eric: Like, h- how, how should people be thinking about where is the best use of, of their time and their effort, and where are they gonna get the biggest return, you know, [00:35:00] maybe early on, and then once they are an established business? Like, you know, I mean, i- in my opinion, I mean, it seems like over the last several years, like, I mean, YouTube and video has, you know, video is king.

Eric: I mean, it’s just, you know- Yeah ... the, the more content that you can create that you can put out there in video and, and whether you get it on social or you get it on YouTube, like, you know, I feel like people really love to consume that content, and they get to know the person, you know, behind, you know, the website, behind the content, who is actually gonna be there.

Eric: You know, but, like, what do you see, and where do you think, you know, the best, the best value is for, for creating content in, in today’s age?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So You know, when I’m talking about, uh, you know, and again, just recognizing, like I, I do work for those companies, so I, I do believe that those are some of the best, most influential platforms, so I don’t wanna...

Jane Dzielski: I- I’m gonna say good things about them, and I recognize that I- I’m not an unbiased person. But, um, just speaking more broadly about the types of content that resonates, I would say customers like to feel savvy and well-informed. And I think [00:36:00] if you can create content that lends that feeling, that is gold in this industry especially.

Jane Dzielski: I think for a long time, um, and this isn’t exclusive to construction, remodeling, et cetera, I think people saw, like, this kind of hidden knowledge as power, as like, “Well, you have to hire a professional ’cause they’re the only ones that understand XYZ.” And I think more and more people want to be in on that information.

Jane Dzielski: They wanna understand why certain things cost more than others, why certain projects are more complex than others. And I think that that’s actually a really useful tool that helps sell these premium offerings and, and really that service. ’Cause I think people enjoy being able to tell their friends about, you know, “Well, we had this problem with my project because there was a, a foundation problem,” or, “There was a, a legacy plumbing problem,” or, “This thing came up.”

Jane Dzielski: And if you can explain why it caused the [00:37:00] problem and kind of what the solution was, then you as the, you know, the customer are part of the solution. If it is kind of this black box where you, you gatekeep the information and say like, “Oh, well, you know, this is this thing, and therefore it’s gonna be more expensive,” you know, nobody really enjoys that feeling of kind of being, uh, being not, or being...

Jane Dzielski: I don’t... Maybe spoken down to is too harsh. But I would say like the Of being spoken to as if they’re not capable of learning the information. ’Cause you’re right, like you hired a professional ’cause you don’t know. But can they take you along and kind of educate you on those things? So when I’m thinking about the type of content that I wanna see related to remodeling is like, how can it make me smarter?

Jane Dzielski: So even if I’m not, you know, I live in a condo, so like I’m not in the business of landscaping, but I do love looking at beautiful yards. So if you can kind of teach me about like why these plants are more beautiful or lower maintenance or a better choice for certain clie- climates, like that kind of speaks to my aspirational life of being able to live in a place that has a lot of land.

Jane Dzielski: Um, [00:38:00] if you’re thinking about, um, you know, tiles, like talking about the craftsmanship behind some of the most expensive tiles in the world and why people pick them and like why they are, you know, so sought after. But then also, what’s something that is beautiful but is actually much more functional? ’Cause often those very expensive premium products are, are less functional than some of the more modern products that we, we might be able to offer.

Jane Dzielski: So when I really think about like what, what people, what types of contents people wanna watch, it often is like what, what makes you smarter, what makes you feel more in the know, uh, is what really, really resonates. Um, and then as far as platforms, you know, like one of the, the great things is that, yes, people are kind of looking for different things on different platforms.

Jane Dzielski: I do think generally if you can get people engaged in your longer form, that does tend to pay dividends more than the, the shortest form content. Hmm. Uh, and you know, I think really just like understand who you are. Like we are not all teenage dancers and, you know, you don’t need [00:39:00] to If it really is fun for your crew that one day to do like a, a dance on your, your site and then post that to TikTok, if that would be fun for your crew, I want you to do it.

Jane Dzielski: But you don’t need to do it if it won’t be fun and it doesn’t actually speak to the, the, the product that you’re offering. If, if that would actually kind of- Yeah ... if, if the guys that you’re working with don’t wanna do that, like, don’t do it. Like, that’s okay.

Eric: Yeah. So, so you brought up short form versus long form, which again, I- Mm-hmm

Eric: I feel like it’s, it’s heavily debated, and at one point I remember like, you know, people said like on your YouTube page you either had to choose one or the other and that you shouldn’t mix both. I have no idea if that, if there was any merit to that, but like, you know- Mm-hmm ... when, when you think about, you know, again, kind of those, those, those, those, those 60-second, 30-second, you know, very short, you know, reels and clips and stories, like, you know, how, how do you decide?

Eric: Like, is it better, you know, to put a bunch of those out? ’Cause I know those often will try to be, you know, used to, to kind of attract, you know, people who aren’t currently following you, you know, versus like putting out, you know, a, a 30-minute or [00:40:00] an hour-long, you know, long-form video that’s kind of like going in-depth and showing the behind the scenes.

Eric: And, you know, like how, how do you, how do you decide between the two?

Jane Dzielski: Mm-hmm. So I would say the best thing, especially if you’re, you’re starting out, is prioritize high-quality long-form content and then use that to source your short-form content. I would say- Right ... you know, to your point is like I’m assuming here that we’re not talking about somebody that has a staff that manages this and has a production team that can kind of do both.

Jane Dzielski: If you have to pick one, I would say prioritize the, the longer form content, and then, you know, find clips within that that you can use for shorter form. Um- I think the variety is important because, again, like people are in the mood for different things. But I would say for somebody who’s selling a high ticket item, um, like, a, you know, multi-thousand dollar remodeling or, or, uh, landscaping or, or whatever it might be, the ROI on the short form probably isn’t gonna pay off the way it [00:41:00] can for something that somebody can decide to buy in 30 seconds.

Jane Dzielski: Um, so that’s my perspective. Again, I am, I’m not a social strategist, but I would say as far as, like, what will give you the return, I would say that I would put my money on the more, you know, the, the longer form that makes a customer feel savvy.

Eric: Yeah. You know, and, and I think too it’s, you know, a lot of times people kind of just, they, they feel like I, I can only showcase, you know, the end product.

Eric: But, like, I, I think to your point about making them kind of, you know, feel like they’re part of the journey and that they’re actually learning. I mean, you know, if, if we’re remodeling your kitchen and we get in there and we open up the walls and we come across this challenge that, you know, we had no idea was gonna be there and, like, yada, yada.

Eric: Like, you know, would, would you say that capturing those moments and, and trying to make this, like, you know, an educational opportunity for others, you know, to, to be able to see and kind of follow along and, like, learn about the process so it’s not just like, “Hey, here’s the before and the after.” You know, it’s kind of this, like, journey and, and, and [00:42:00] what it actually is like to go through a large, you know, construction project or something like that, because a lot of people don’t

Eric: They’ve never done that. They don’t know what it’s like to come in and rip out all the walls and the cabinets and the flooring and, you know, we’re, we’re gonna be in a war zone. There might be mold.

Jane Dzielski: There’s all kinds of crazy stuff in there, yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Jane Dzielski: All kinds of things can go wrong. No, I think that’s a, a really great point.

Jane Dzielski: I think that is an amazing thing to show, um, because I think because the- The idea that we wanna focus on the final product and kind of how beautiful it is in the end gets us into trouble because it’s very rare that you do a large scale project that doesn’t run into several hurdles. Yeah. So if people are kind of used to seeing these seamless products or projects that just kind of pop out after three months, then their expectation is really skewed when they meet with a contractor and they keep running into delays, it feels like this is some strange thing that maybe the contractor has done wrong.

Jane Dzielski: Mm-hmm. Uh, and so I think the more you can kind of visualize those things, and I would say especially, like, if I’m looking to hire somebody to do a complex job, I would love to see that they’ve encountered some gnarly problems and figured out how to solve it. [00:43:00] Um, I currently, I sit on the HOA board of my building, and I think something that has been just really interesting for me to learn is some of those, like, kind of expected obstacles and how we can, uh, plan for them and, and create contingencies.

Jane Dzielski: And then what I’ve, like, often seen is, you know, we, we have the board, we have our meetings, we get all this information, and then we try to kind of distill it for the rest of the residents, and often people are like, “Well, I mean, why are you doing this? It seems like it’s, uh, you know, this seems like a terrible decision.”

Jane Dzielski: And it’s like, well, I mean, if you came to the last six hours of meetings I had, you probably wouldn’t think that. But I get how if you just kind of show people the end result, it seems like you’re gonna charge me how much for what? Like- Yeah ... it, it is a, it’s I think those, those process steps are really critical, and I think honestly it’s, it’s better for everybody to have them a little bit more visible.

Jane Dzielski: Sure.

Eric: So I see a lot of people, again, they, they, they’re like, “All right, I wanna start with kind of the organic, the, you know, just creating content, sort of doing all this, this free stuff.” Mm-hmm. You know, at, at what point do you think it’s important for a contractor who, who again [00:44:00] wants to just do everything in their power to, to get found, when should they start thinking about running ads?

Eric: And are, and are there any hidden benefits of, like, that people may not realize? Like, it, it’s, you know, are, are, are there, are there other things that, that, you know, other signals that get sent to Google or to others when you do start running ads beyond just the, you know, I, I, I showed up in this person’s search and they came to my website.

Eric: Like, are there other factors that, you know, hidden benefits that, that people might get from, from having an ad account and, and running some?

Jane Dzielski: Yeah. So- Just to be super clear, the paid results have nothing to do with the organic results on Google. However, we have consistently seen that as when a human being comes to Google, they look for bathroom remodeler near me, they get a, a series of results.

Jane Dzielski: If people tend to click on organic links, seeing what’s available in the paid links and have those correspond to the organic and the paid benefits both spots. So- Mm-hmm ... basically, your [00:45:00] organic ads perform better if you also show up in the paid results, and the paid results perform better if you also show up in the organic.

Jane Dzielski: Now, there’s nothing you can do, like, there, there’s not like the, you know, you pay this dollar and then it increases your ad rank, um, uh, on SEO. Those are completely separate departments. Um, but as a user, they tend to-- They, they appear to kind of reinforce each other. So when we see that this is both, uh, you know, this is a top organic ad, people tend to kind of-- That validates that advertiser as, you know, likely a good fit for what they’re looking for.

Jane Dzielski: Um, now as far as kind of at what point do you consider paid, I would say if you have goals that you are not meeting right now or if you have, um, if your organic isn’t meeting your needs, uh, I, I think then that’s a, a good opportunity to diversify your efforts. So if you are able to get a nice, healthy pipeline without paid ads, you should do that.

Jane Dzielski: Um, if your [00:46:00] ambition is to double your bookings in the next two years Unless your organic results have been doubling year over year, you’re probably not gonna get there with just organic results. So what really I’d say we decided is, like, what’s your trajectory and what are your goals? And if those two things are not going to-- If your current trajectory isn’t gonna meet your goals, then that’s a good opportunity to see where paid can help you.

Eric: Sure. You know, and, and, and f- and for what it’s worth, for all of our listeners out there, I, I can tell you we have, you know, tried and, and worked with all the different forms of advertising, and I can say, you know, Google Ads by far just smokes everything else out there. Like, it, it-- The, the, the person is searching for something that they want right now versus they’re just passively scrolling, you know, on some other site, and then an ad pops up, and it may or may not, you know, trigger their interest.

Eric: But if they’re really, you know, a buyer, a serious buyer, then we see them going, you know, and searching for that specific thing. And so for, for us, I mean, Google Ads have, have, have, have [00:47:00] been king of the hill, you know, doing, doing a lot of great work. I’m, I’m curious, how, how do you see AI- Hmm ... affecting, g- you know, Google’s ability to, to continue serving up and, and getting in front of those decision-makers?

Eric: ’Cause- Yep ... you know, again, we, we’ve seen a lot of people, they’re now, you know, they’re, they’re asking their, their favorite AI, you know, the questions that they used to go to Google for. And so kind of what, what do you think’s gonna happen there?

Jane Dzielski: So, you know, I think that was something, like, when we first saw people, uh, you know, and, and Google specifically is when we really saw people latching on to ChatGPT more than our platforms, that definitely set off some alarm bells.

Jane Dzielski: Um, I would say Some things haven’t changed. So while AI is definitely on the rise, and we’ve seen triple-digit growth year over year, um, platforms like Grok and ChatGPT and Gemini still have a, a relatively small share of what people are, are kind of asking the internet things. Um, [00:48:00] so that’s kind of-- the one factor is, like, there, there is-- like, people are definitely still coming to Google Search.

Jane Dzielski: Mm-hmm. Um, some things that are adapting is that when it comes to what people are... Sorry, I’m gonna, I’m gonna pause it and kind of go back a, a second. When I think about, like, how people are actually using the platform, Google is definitely still the place where people come for trusted recommendations. And it’s very important for Google that we prioritize what people who are coming and doing the searching for get what they need more than what do, you know, the advertisers, like, how are th-those individual needs being met?

Jane Dzielski: Because ultimately, we think we can achieve g- both. The more we can meet the needs of the people who are coming to Google and asking questions, the more everything else comes along. Now, once we start prioritizing the needs of our paid advertisers, we’re gonna start to see that consumer experience break down.

Jane Dzielski: So that has really been [00:49:00] a founding kind of principle when we think-- when Google thinks about how we’re adapting a product, our products and how we’re, we’re changing the way that the interface on Google changes. Um, that can sometimes affect the way performance looks for some advertisers. So for a lot of people, you know, they’ll say, “Well, I’ve seen that my, uh- That my performance has declined or my, my costs have gotten more expensive.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and that can be due to a lot of factors. Often it is because of competitor action, or it might be that, uh, customers are kind of looking for something different than what is available with that particular advertiser, and maybe they haven’t made it clear enough to the Google algorithm or to customers who are coming to, to Google to, to interface with that.

Jane Dzielski: So I would say I, I have a lot of confidence that Google understands why people are coming to their platform and how to use it, and we are good at, uh, adapting to that and understanding, kind of letting all the other needs of our, our business follow behind that.

Eric: Yeah.

Jane Dzielski: Did [00:50:00] that answer your question? I feel like maybe

Eric: I went off- Yeah.

Eric: You know, I, uh, I, I certainly, uh, you know, I, I’ve al-always sort of felt like, and, you know, I know kind of, you know, really, you know, ChatGPT, you know, they, they kinda got the early jump it feels like. Mm-hmm. You know, ton of big, big rush of people, and then, you know, sort of feels like, you know, Anthropic and, and Claude have now kind of surfaced and come up, you know, pretty heavily here.

Eric: But, like, you know, I’ve always had this, like, thought, it’s just like, man, like I, I feel like Google’s this dark horse that, like, it, it, it has so much data that- ... you guys have been, you know, indexing and have, like, you know, that you’ve had for decades now, and these other companies are now having to, like, figure out how to, like, create their own data sets and train on them.

Eric: I mean, it just, it seems like you guys are, are really well-positioned to ultimately, you know, come out with, you know, and, and I know you’ve got Gemini and, and, and there’s a lot of ways that you’ll be able to continue kinda getting AI in, in, in front of people. And, and I’ve even seen it now, I mean, when you go search, like, you know, you’re getting the AI summaries and you’re getting some of that, you know, feeling of, like, you’re using a different platform, like, that’s, that’s kinda being brought into that, you know, user experience.

Eric: I mean, it, it, it seems like [00:51:00] in the, in the long run, I mean, if I had to, if I had to bet on any of them, I mean, I, you know, I don’t know how you’d bet against Google.

Jane Dzielski: No, I appreciate that. I think, I mean, one thing that is, is very important, I, I should have mentioned this before, is that, like, the fact that people search on other platforms or use other AI grows the whole pie.

Jane Dzielski: It doesn’t, like, take bites out of other pies. Um, and I, I think there was maybe initially some concern that it would, you know, people would shift their behaviors. Uh, but what we’ve generally heard say, you know, if you, if you do 10 searches a, a month on ChatGPT, that means you do 10 searches less on these other platforms.

Jane Dzielski: Um, and we really just haven’t seen that be the case. Yeah. It’s more that people are asking different questions that they used to ask. Questions that they wouldn’t have come to a search engine for are now questions that you regularly go to a search engine for. Yeah. Um, and it might change, you know, instead of, you know, y- if you used to say, like, a couple nouns and a verb, and then you would do another search to narrow it down, and then do another search to narrow it down.

Jane Dzielski: Now I think a, a lot of these platforms are better at kind of saying, like, from that first search, like, what are some follow-up questions that help you [00:52:00] get to the place that you’re gonna go, um, without necessarily, uh- ticking up the number of times you, you type something into that search bar. Sure. Um, but ultimately is, like, people are just asking more questions.

Jane Dzielski: They’re asking types of questions that they wouldn’t have been able to ask, uh, a couple years ago, and I, I think, you know, that comes down to a lot of it is, like, the types of data that didn’t used to be considered data. So, you know, again, as a, a statistician- Mm-hmm ... we used to really say, like, “Data is when you have lists of numbers that can be put into rows and, and columns,” and now data is kind of anything.

Eric: You know, I, I, I wanna give one other, uh, you know, shout-out and plug here to Google. I, I, I think that, you know, a lot of people don’t realize that, that Google actually provides support and, and I would actually say is, is great support. You know, but, like, the way that we’ve gone about it, and we, we have Google Workspace, you know, I mean, again, I, I think you, you’ve got an incredible offering for, you know, small businesses to, to be able to get all their email- Yeah

Eric: calendaring. You’ve got, you know, the, the, the Google Drive, and you got, you know, Google Docs and Sheets and all of that stuff. But, like, you know, by having that [00:53:00] established relationship with Google, if I ever need support, I mean, it, it is a single click away and, and, and I think a lot of people don’t realize that.

Eric: And, and, and it’s, it’s just so valuable, you know, for us to know that if we ever have any sort of an issue with anything, whether it’s, you know, our, our reviews are disappearing or, you know, we, we got, you know, some- something going on with our, with our email or one of our accounts got an issue, like, I mean, just, like, being able to reach out and immediately get help is, is so valuable.

Eric: But I think a lot of people think, “Oh, Google’s so big they, they can’t service their customers, and they don’t even try, and there’s not a phone number.” It’s like, that’s not the case at all, actually. Like, you just need to have your account set up. But, like, I would encourage and I would recommend to all businesses, you know, to, to establish that relationship with Google because, again, if you think about how much of your success is ultimately tied back to, you know, how well does Google know you and how well are you, you know, getting those reviews and running those ads and managing all of your, your growing business and adding people into, to your workspace, like, I mean, having all of that tied together, you know, and then, you know, where Jim and I can just search across everything and, and [00:54:00] give you great content and great information, like, I just, I think it’s invaluable, you know.

Eric: And, and it’s, and it’s extremely affordable. You know what I mean? It’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s a nominal expense for, for any business, but having that, you know, at your, at your service when you need it is, is, is extremely helpful.

Jane Dzielski: No, and I, I appreciate you saying that. I think, you know, to, to your point, I...

Jane Dzielski: Google does wanna prioritize support on those, uh, uh, especially on, like, you know, bad actor factors like you’re talking about because it is worse for everybody if people can’t trust the listings that they’re seeing on Google. Yeah. So it’s worse for businesses. It’s worse for Google itself. It’s worse for the people who are trying to find somebody to do work.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. So look, this is, this has been extremely insightful. Like, I, I really appreciate you, you sharing all this, uh, you know, behind the scenes here with us, Jane. Like, mean- means, means a lot. Uh, I’m, I’m curious as, as we wrap up, I mean, are-- is there any kind of last, you know, final advice that, that you would give, you know, for contractors out there that, that, you know, if you had to kinda pick one or two things, you know, your, your, your, your [00:55:00] best advice that you could give them, what would it be?

Jane Dzielski: Um, okay. So a pattern I see emerging across every industry is that people really wanna rebrand as tech companies. So they’ll say, you know, “We’re a tech company that sells shoes,” or, “We’re a tech company that builds decks.” Um, and I think often, you know, the desire there is to be a- uh, associated with the type of innovation and, uh, new thinking and high margins that tech companies are, are able to achieve.

Jane Dzielski: And what I often see people doing with those types of rebrands is they just mean that they’re incorporating technology into a lot of their operations. Um, and so I would encourage advertisers, obviously, like in a lot of ways we all are tech companies, is thinking about what is the-- what culturally are you doing to be a tech company?

Jane Dzielski: Uh, what kind of-- w-what structures do you have in place? And so if I were to give some advice, if you wanna be a tech company that remodels kitchens or a tech company that does landscaping, I would say some things that you would need to [00:56:00] do is you’d need to think about what risks are you gonna take, because innovation is risky, but not innovating is also risky.

Jane Dzielski: It’s just much harder to measure the risk of not innovating. So really think about what does innovation mean to your industry and your company. And I would also say you need to set and discuss, uh, clear goals and objectives. Uh, I think that’s something that, uh, a lot of tech companies do really well, that a lot of, uh, other types of businesses maybe struggle with, is that you need to have a few very clear goals and objectives that your teams can work to without necessarily doing a lot of oversight.

Jane Dzielski: So I would encourage us to be like technology companies in that we are truly innovating and we are truly setting ambitious goals and reaching them.

Eric: That’s awesome. I, I, I love that, and, you know, one of, one of our, you know, goals here with JobTread, and we’ve, we’ve built a huge, you know, community. I think we’ve got about 12,000, you know, something [00:57:00] hundred, uh, you know, customers that, that are, that are using our product.

Eric: And, like, we always want, you know, to, to be a great role model, you know, to them. And, and, and they’ll often say, “Oh, you know, well, you’re a software company. Things... You know, you guys are doing it differently.” And it’s like, no, like, just like you said, like we can all be tech savvy. We can all leverage technology, and it’s about, you know, leveraging that, you know, technology to help you to operate better, more efficiently, be more focused, you know, creating, you know, better culture.

Eric: Like, all of those things, I, I think all go into play, and it doesn’t mean that you have to be, you know, a software company or providing a technology, you know, product or service. It’s that you’re leveraging it and that you’re keeping up with the times. And, you know, again, that, that, that, that, that’s exactly what I would say Google does a great job role modeling for all of us on how to build a very large, very successful and scalable business.

Eric: And, you know, it’s, uh, it’s just an awesome resource that, you know, that, that, that you guys provide to, to all of the, the you know, corporate America and all of us who, who, who use you every single day, you know, to get found, to, to solve problems, to, to build better businesses. [00:58:00] So, you know, thank you again for, for all of your insight here.

Eric: You know, really, uh, real- really appreciate it, and I know our audience will, will appreciate it as well.

Jane Dzielski: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I, you know, I love the opportunity to, to speak to, uh, people like you in this field. So it’s a nice change of pace for me.

Eric: Awesome. All right. Well, thank you, Jane.

Jane Dzielski: Thank you so much.

Eric: Have a great one. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don’t forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review. And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com.

Eric: We’d love to hear from you. I’m Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours