Inside the Playbook of a Successful Design Build FirmWith Bryan Sebring of Sebring Design Build

Eric Fortenberry: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories behind construction business leaders. We will share how they got started, how they found success, and the lessons learned along the way. I’m your host, Eric Fortenberry. Welcome to Builder Stories

Eric Fortenberry: Welcome back everybody. Today I am excited. I’ve got a very special guest who has been with us at JobTread for a long time, been very active in the community. I’ve seen him helping numerous other contractors out there, so really excited. We’ve got Brian Sebring. He is the owner of Sebring Design Build.

Eric Fortenberry: They’re located in Franklin, Tennessee. Very excited to have you on. Welcome to Builder Stories, Brian.

Bryan Sebring: Thanks for having me, Eric.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah, well, why don’t you kick us off? Give us a little bit of information, you know, who, who you are, how’d you get into construction, what led you to start your design build firm?

Bryan Sebring: So I’m, I’m Brian Sebring. Again, the name of Sebring Design Build. Um, I started my business in 1999, um, [00:01:00] actually back in Illinois. I was in, um, Naperville, Illinois, um, and recently moved my business to Franklin, Tennessee about four years ago, um, 2021, 2022 or timeframe. Over COVID we moved the business. But yeah, I worked, um, worked in the industry in my, my, my teenage years, um, in, um, in high school and kinda learned it fr- I had two mentors that kinda taught me both work ethic and then, you know, craftsmanship, estimating, and quality control.

Bryan Sebring: And then I kind of went on my own when I was, honestly, about 25 years old. So I’ve been doing it a little while, so I have a, a little bit of the knowledge, but I’m learning every day, so.

Eric Fortenberry: Awesome.

Bryan Sebring: Yeah.

Eric Fortenberry: That’s awesome. And, and, and I remember you and I, we, we first met kind of, you know, at, at some of the, you know, the industry trade shows and events, things like that.

Eric Fortenberry: So like have... W- when did you start getting involved? I, I, I know you, you know, you’re, you’re involved with, uh, with Remodelers Advantage. You’re involved with Kyle Hunt, Remodelers On The Rise. You know, kinda h- how did you, how did you sorta find your way into those, those peer groups and those, and those communities?[00:02:00]

Bryan Sebring: Um, I, I will say back in about 2005, I had heard about peer groups, period. Doesn’t matter what peer group it is. And, and I was thinking about joining the, um, the Remodelers for National Home Builders peer group. They didn’t have one. They only had Builder 20... I think they call them Builder 20 groups. I joined the local builders association, and I, I...

Bryan Sebring: for the reason to find out about peer groups. Well, instead I got pulled into being on the board of directors and connecting with the local builders association, and I did that for about 10 years. And finally, I did join, um, Remodelers Advantage, uh, back in 2015. And I mean, peer groups, I tell people all the time, it changed my life.

Bryan Sebring: Um, you get in a group setting. I really thrive in a group setting like that. I’m a big proponent of being coached by a group of people rather than a single person. Um, I’m a stubborn person, so when someone suggests changes in your business, it’s nice to hear that, well, when you have multiple people that have done something to change and have success [00:03:00] rather than one person coaching you for that one success.

Bryan Sebring: So I really believe in the peer group model, and now I actually coach with Kyle Hunt and Remodelers On The Rise and, uh, it’s been a great experience. I love the group that I lead. They’re amazing people and they’re, they’re learning and growing really fast. I learn from them as well, which is kinda cool.

Bryan Sebring: Um, but yeah, it’s a unique experience ’cause every day I’m doing exactly what they’re doing, and then we meet twice a y- uh, twice a year, and then we do, do also meet monthly and quarterly. But, um, so I really relate to what they’re doing on a regular basis, so, um- I think that gives me a little skin in the game or they-- I think they respect me a little more because I’m literally doing it every single day.

Bryan Sebring: And when they, you know, when they have something they approach, I’m like, “Yeah, I dealt with that yesterday.” Not years ago or in philosophy. I’m literally doing exactly what they’re doing, and I’ve, I’ve gotten past some of those issues being in a peer group for those many years because it does give you seniority, education.

Bryan Sebring: You just learn really quick. And as long as you’re willing to be vulnerable in a setting like that, ’cause all [00:04:00] of them require you to expose all your numbers and your profit and your GP, all that stuff. And if you’re willing, uh, to kind of expose yourself a little bit and be vulnerable, you’ll learn a lot.

Bryan Sebring: And, um, a-again, you get in a good group of good people that are willing to help, and they wanna learn as well. So it’s, it’s, it’s been really good.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. That’s, that’s awesome. So when you, when you think back about, you know, again, your, your early days, kind of when you first started, like, what, what was your focus?

Eric Fortenberry: I mean, have, have you always done the, you know, the, the design build, or did you sort of start off with smaller projects and kind of work your way, you know, up into the larger projects?

Bryan Sebring: So again, I have a unique experience because I started a new business in a new location. Basically, I started over, right?

Bryan Sebring: Um, so fi- whatever, tw- 2021 when I moved here to Franklin, I-- it had been 20 years, 1999, well, 22 years since I started a business. And man, the knowledge that I gained from those 20 years was unbelievable because, yes, in, in Naperville, I started doing small projects all by myself, tool belts on, you know, kind of [00:05:00] handyman starting.

Bryan Sebring: And my original company name was Sebring Services. Um, I didn’t really understand the whole, you know, niching down to, to find the right projects. And so when I started here in Franklin, I’m like, “I’m not doing that. I’m not meant to do that. I’m only meant to do design build.” I became design build, and when I...

Bryan Sebring: Honestly, joining the peer group, that was, there was a model where everyone was doing it and making a lot more money, and they’re actually controlling the situation with controlling the design and just having a good process. I mean, everything’s process-driven nowadays, uh, if you want success. And so I, I started that in 2015.

Bryan Sebring: I rebranded, I think, in 2016 to Sebring Design Build and redid all of our website, created our process. We have a, a two-step design process. I learned that from someone in my peer groups. I l- I remember after dinner one night, going back to his hotel room and l- and unders- trying to learn what he did differently than me, uh, because he was killing it and doing well.

Bryan Sebring: And so, yeah, I changed that. And so when I moved here, I just said, “I’m only doing design build. [00:06:00] I’m only gonna charge the appropriate amount of where I eventually wanna be here with overhead and all that.” So I just created a business to say, “We’re gonna give the customer a great experience, and, but we need to make sure we charge enough for when I do have a design studio and when I have ov- more overhead in this location.”

Bryan Sebring: And, and so again, in 2023, I closed down Illinois because I, I didn’t want to go back and forth. I love, I love Illinois. I’m from there, obviously, originally. But coming to here, I just-- we were here most of the time. My family was here. I was traveling. I’m like, “You know, I just wanna focus.” I was giving each of them 50% of my time rather than 100% of my time, so I could grow one over the other.

Bryan Sebring: And so, uh, it was hard, and I had to let go of a lot of people in Illinois, because I had estimator, everyone, project managers, designers, salespeople. And so it was a well-run business before COVID, and then after COVID, it kind of scrambled everything, like a lot of people. And then I finally closed down Illinois in, like I said, 2023.

Bryan Sebring: And again, there’s a lot I learned from the peer groups. Totally different start [00:07:00] in Franklin compared to Naperville. T- stark difference. I don’t get as many leads as I did in Ill- Illinois, but the leads are way better. It’s more of our, our clientele, more on the luxury end. That’s what we were leaning towards.

Bryan Sebring: And so yeah, it’s been, um, it’s been an experience in growth for 27 years, for sure.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. Well, that, that’s great. Can, can you maybe walk us through what, what does your, what, what does your process look like from y- you get a new lead. Kinda h- h- how do you kind of work all the way through to, to ultimately getting them as a, as a customer and starting the build?

Bryan Sebring: So yeah, we, we do, we, we qualify the lead, right? We get a, we call, I call it a raw lead, someone that comes in that m- saw, saw us many different ways. We, we do a lot of different ways to attract leads from social media to even do, we’re back to print magazine, some ar- articles here. We’re in Illinois, that didn’t work, and here it does.

Bryan Sebring: So, uh, it’s again, part of it’s been unique marketing to dif- different markets, different people, different age groups. So peop- uh, a client will, or a prospect will call in. We, we have the who, what, why, [00:08:00] where, and how much questions. You know, where are they located? Um, why they wanna do this project? Again, I ask why because it’s if they’ve, um, if they say, “Well, we’re gonna move in a year,” it’s not normally a good lead.

Bryan Sebring: If they say it’s a rental property, it’s not normally a good lead, right? So it’s understanding what they’re looking for, seeing if we’re the right fit, and going through the qualifying questions. The how much, I don’t push as hard in this location compared I did in Illinois because the leads tend to be better.

Bryan Sebring: Um, I, I meet with people before we get into too much pricing. I, I do have a pricing guide on my website that helps people at least wrap their head around prices. Then I will m- do a free consultation and meet with someone in person. Um, and from that point on, we... The whole i- I, you know, idea of that meeting is to understand what they’re looking for, to listen.

Bryan Sebring: All I do is listen, and I ask lots of questions. Again, it’s all about are we the right fit? And I tell people that on the phone. I said, “You know, these, these next many s- meetings will be dates before we get married,” right? The whole [00:09:00] idea of getting married and signing that contract, ’cause I said, “If you, you get married to the wrong contract, it can end in a ugly divorce dealing with lawyers and all this stuff.”

Bryan Sebring: So we prefer to have multiple dates to see if both of us would be the right fit. I tell people all the time, “I’m not sure we’re the right fit for your projects. Are you fine with me telling you that we’re not at the end? If we’re not, I’ll try to refer you to somebody else.” And so we meet with them. We review what they wanna do.

Bryan Sebring: About the only promotion that we do is I have a little slideshow. I actually, I show off JobTread. I show off our designs and how we do 3D renderings. Again, not as many people do that in this market. And so I just kinda show, I, I really sell the process I don’t sell the kitchen or the bathroom. We do mostly interiors.

Bryan Sebring: Um, uh, you know, whole house interiors, that sort of stuff. Um, but I don’t really sell that. Um, I just sell it’s step by step by step. And so this is-- Let me tell you about the next step. And so our first step is what we call discovery. It’s 2% of a preliminary budget range when I’m looking at the project. We base it on other [00:10:00] projects, you know, big swath, 200 to 300 grand type ranges.

Bryan Sebring: And I go, “Okay, based on a 200, 300 grand, we-- I do 2%.” And, um, they sign an agreement that says, “We will present you a 3D rendering.” We don’t give out the drawings, but we’ll then present you a scope of work with a range to it. I don’t give you an exact price until I know exactly what you want. And so we don’t-- but we don’t give out those drawings.

Bryan Sebring: And I-- we tell them, I go, “2%.” We still lose money on that, um, because of the amount of work that goes in. We use, um, Twindo, uh, you know, the canvas, the scanning. That saves us time, but it still costs us money. And I, you know, I kind of go through that process, a part of that slideshow when I first meet them.

Bryan Sebring: And so if they decide to move into discovery, we, we scan it, we send it out, we get it back, we adjust the drawings. We then can price details. I can price cabinets and countertops, and I can spec out electro... I can get down to more details. And it-- I’ve got a pretty good estimating system that, that... And a typical kitchen maybe takes me an hour or two to do a really [00:11:00] detailed scope of work.

Bryan Sebring: And I-- and we do a mood board, and we, we-- So when we meet with them, we’ll give them the mood board, the scope of work, and the range. And then we have a little marketing piece of who we are and why we’re different, all that stuff. And so if they wanna move into the next step, again, we’re selling the next step, it’s the design agreement phase, and that’s another 5% of a much tighter range.

Bryan Sebring: That, that discovery range is much tighter. It’s not 100 to 200. Now it’s like a 5% range. And so when we, uh, meet with them, they, they, you know, if they ready-- wanna move forward with that, they give us 5%, and then, then we give them the drawing, and we go back and forth making all those selections. One thing that we do different that’s kind of controversial, some people like it, some people don’t, is that we tell them, “If you sign with us within 14 days of us presenting you an exact price, the design and the discovery fees are credited back to you As long as you sign within, I think it’s 15 day- 15 days of that presentation, uh, of the proposal, we give you that as a, as a, um, as a first payment.”

Bryan Sebring: That normally sets them [00:12:00] at ease, and I tell them, “The only time, you know, if, if we’re not the right fit, we keep that money for all the work we’ve done. We’ll hand you the drawings, and you can take it somewhere else and go and find someone else.” And so you still have the opportunity to date us, ’cause we’re doing the same thing.

Bryan Sebring: If we see that it’s not a right fit for us, we’ll hand you those designs, and you can go to someone else and, and do it. And so then we sign a proposal, and we s- start the project, so.

Eric Fortenberry: That’s awesome. Uh, so, you know, one, one thing I, I, I noticed about your website is that, you know, just like how you’re describing, you, you, you’ve really organized around these steps in the process, and you’ve also got a ton of, of, of, of material and, you know, educational content to help them understand what is this process gonna be like.

Eric Fortenberry: I mean, w- would you say that you find that that helps to just, you know, kind of warm up the conversation? They, they understand. They’re... You know, you’re not having to kind of explain basics. It’s y- you can have much more meaningful conversations?

Bryan Sebring: Yeah, I think the more the, uh, again, I still put the homeowner [00:13:00] as the focus on my website, but the more I can educate them, the more likely they’re gonna sign with me.

Bryan Sebring: Y-years ago, one of, one of the biggest things we do is we have a video, like an introduction video of who we do, w-who we are. And so w-what I’ll, what I’ll do is they’ll-- They may have seen it. Sometimes they don’t find it. It’s on my main page if they don’t click that button. Nowadays, people don’t spend a lot of times on websites, unfortunately.

Bryan Sebring: So I, not only do I have it on my website, I try to send it to them. So before that first discovery meeting, I use text now. I stopped emailing. They don’t open their emails. People don’t open them. And so I send them a confirmation of the appointment saying, “We’re gonna be there on this day, on this time.

Bryan Sebring: This is what’s gonna happen at this first meeting. We’re gonna ask you a lot of questions. We’re gonna go through our process,” blah, blah, blah. And then I send them a video of who we are. It’s got one of my designers kind of describing what she does. And I’ve had a lot of people say, “You know what? I feel like I know you before you walked in.”

Bryan Sebring: And so that is a warm lead for me, is that they, they want to get to know me. They want to know me more through that. And so that has helped for sure. But yeah, every bit of [00:14:00] content. I mean, even when I turn someone down or I say we’re not the right fit, I’ve had, I’ve had that happen. I will still try to send them an educational content of how to choose someone that’s a better fit.

Bryan Sebring: You know what I mean? Like they’re-- we’ve got a bunch of content on how to rank contractors and what to look for and all this stuff. And so my thing is if I can leave them better than when I’ve, when they first met me, they’re more likely gonna talk to their neighbors and go, “You know, we didn’t use C Ben.

Bryan Sebring: I wish we could have, but they didn’t do this or that d- wasn’t the right fit, but you should try them first.” I wanna make adv- I wanna make advocates for every person I meet. And so when I talk to someone on the phone, if they’re not the right fit, I just had someone today where he want-- We do mostly interiors, so we don’t, we don’t wanna do additions.

Bryan Sebring: I did additions in Illinois, and I kinda like the idea of staying under the w- you know, the warm weather and, you know, I don’t have to deal with tornadoes coming through and ripping off our roofs. But, um, but yeah, I talked to him and I go, “We’re not the right fit,” I said, “but let me refer you to someone that may be a better fit for you.”

Bryan Sebring: And he was very [00:15:00] thankful. And I also said to him, the last thing I said to him, I said, “Here’s the thing. You’re gonna talk to two or three people, and I know it’s overwhelming. I’m always here. You’re always welcome to call me. I will always call you back, and I always will try to help. I’d rather have you make a better decision, um, and call me than to make a poor decision and feel like you’re imposing.

Bryan Sebring: So y-you’re always welcome to call me. I’m here. I’d rather help you.” And so just that approach to trying to help people, um, really, I think, sets us apart tremendously.

Eric Fortenberry: I, I, I love that, Brian. I, I think so many people don’t Just go that one extra step to help them find somebody who would be a better fit for them and like, you know, I, I, I heard...

Eric Fortenberry: I had someone tell me one time when he just basically told someone no, they went and they gave him a one-star review because, you know, e- even though they didn’t even use him, but they just felt like it was such a, you know, bad experience versus, you know, again, you, you are creating a great experience for that person that y- you’re not even gonna work with, but it’s like, “Hey, let me help refer you to someone else.”

Eric Fortenberry: Like, I, I think that is so important for everyone out there. And, and, [00:16:00] again, like there’s an opportunity here to work with the other builders in your area because, you know, again, for, for, for a project that’s not a good fit for you could be great for them, and, you know, maybe they have projects that aren’t a good fit for them.

Eric Fortenberry: Like, when you’re able to, to kinda build that, that relationship with those other builders, you know, I think it really does create a really strong community of builders with- within, within your area, and so that’s, that’s a great move. I, I, I love that a lot.

Bryan Sebring: It’s happened to me, too.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah.

Bryan Sebring: I mean, years ago, gosh, this is probably 15 years ago, I had a client tell me her budget.

Bryan Sebring: This is back when I was heavily qualifying in Illinois. She told me her budget, and it, it was like half of what it would cost, and I knew that. And I told her that. I said, “Honestly, with what you’re looking to s- to do, you’re at least double.” And she’s like, “Well, I don’t have that amount of money.” I’m like, I’m like, “I’m sorry.”

Bryan Sebring: I go, “I just know that’s what it’s gonna cost.” And then she asked, “Can you do partial project?” I’m like, “We don’t do partial projects.” And she just didn’t like any of the answers, and I was t- I tried to end. But that’s where I’m like I really try to... I, again, now, knowing what I know now, I would’ve probably approached it a little different.

Bryan Sebring: But that’s where, and she left me a bad review, just [00:17:00] like you said. I think that she left me a bad review on Yelp. And so that’s where I really talk, I talk to my peer groups all the time. You need to, uh, build up the good reviews so when the bad review comes, it does not matter. And you use that bad review to educate, ’cause everyone tries to find your worst reviews.

Bryan Sebring: They immediately go to there. And so what I do is I, the comments I leave, I use it as an educational tool to, ’cause everyone’s gonna read those. Maybe they’re four years in the past or 10 years, and it does not matter. And I, you know, I just leave it as like, “This wasn’t a good fit because of this,” and I try to be nice and generous to the person, and I don’t take offense to it.

Bryan Sebring: Because I will tell you, I’ve had homeowners say, “You had a 4.9 review score.” She goes, “If you had a five, I don’t know if I would’ve trusted your reviews.” Having that negative review is actually s- can be good, unless it’s a- an existing client that, well, you were horrible with. That, that can be bad. But that’s, that’s where you need to reply to all your bad reviews.

Bryan Sebring: You need to reply generously and not get mean or petty, um, that sort of stuff. But man, there, and there’s a way to reply in an appropriate way [00:18:00] that actually educates the next client.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah, 100%. So another thing, you know, you, you brought up is, is, is how you’ve got your pricing guide on your website. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Eric Fortenberry: Because I, I know a lot of people that, that seems to be one of those things where, where, where people, they, they either go all in on it and they, and they wanna kind of be as transparent as they can, or they’re just like, “There’s no way. I, I feel like that’s, you know, nobody’s gonna call me. It’s gonna, you know, price me out of projects.

Eric Fortenberry: Like, they’re gonna get scared.” You know, h- you know, t- first tell us about your pricing guide and then, and then kind of give us maybe a little bit more insight on, on kind of those, those, those people who, who think it might be a bad idea

Bryan Sebring: This has been a topic that’s been around-- I’ve started my pricing guide probably, gosh, I think it’s 15 years a- 10, 15 years ago.

Bryan Sebring: It’s been on a long time, and, and it’s been, it’s been very controversial over the years. But for me, it works. But I will tell you, we’ve done million-dollar kitchens, and I don’t have a million-dollar price guide on my, my website, and we’ve still done million-dollar kitchens, right? [00:19:00] And so my thing, my thing is, is that it’s hard because of what we do now in this market.

Bryan Sebring: This market is more of a luxury and affluent market. Every kitchen’s different. Every kitchen’s unique. And that client that we, you know, d- did a pricier kitchen for a more top-tier, I literally when I met with them, I’m like, “Just so you know, your kitchen’s four kitchens worth.” It’s literally the size of four kitchens.

Bryan Sebring: And because she had a bar and a pantry and a butler’s pantry and kitchen and two islands and, you know, it was everything. And we did the whole f- you know. And so, so my thing is we do master, primary baths, hall baths, kitchens, small, medium, and large. And we do ranges. You know, we, we don’t give exact. We kind of have ranges.

Bryan Sebring: But, um, it at least allows people to wrap their head around a price, and it puts some solidity. And I’m willing to print that and put my on my website. People don’t think I’m just coming up with these numbers off the cuff, right? And so, um, every-- Again, if I don’t qualify a client on the phone, I still send them my pricing guide.

Bryan Sebring: So I do [00:20:00] that, um, that text with, “Okay, this is what to expect at our first meeting,” the video, and then our pricing guide. Now, they’ve-- ’cause I use HubSpot, I can a lot of times tell if they’ve been on our pricing guide if you use certain software. If, if I know that they haven’t done that and I’m not pushing the price, I will send that and say, “Hey, by the way, I have a pricing guide.

Bryan Sebring: I’m gonna send that.” I tell them, “I’m gonna send that with you.” And I also say that, um, in the conversation, I say, “If, if, if you decide you don’t wanna meet for whatever reason, just text me back, no problem. I have no problem hearing no.” And so the whole idea is that I don’t have to go out to the job if they don’t wanna spend the money.

Bryan Sebring: And I had that one last week. You know what I mean? They-- I didn’t know what she wanted to ch- price, and she saw our pricing. It’s like it’s just way not even close to the price of what we wanna spend. I’m like, “Well, good luck on your project.” And I couldn’t refer anybody because everyone I would refer would be...

Bryan Sebring: It’s not like we’re more expensive than everyone else. We’re probably in the range of everyone that does the same thing, and, and that’s where I’m like, “Unfortunately, I don’t have anybody to refer you to. You may have to g- just general contract it yourself.” I- I’ll say something like that and be honest.

Bryan Sebring: I’ll be, [00:21:00] I’ll be candid with people on that, so. But yeah, the pricing guide, and not only on, on our contact form, we have, “Have you seen our pricing guide?” And they have to check... Now, we’ve just recently changed it, but for a while we had you have to check the boxes to be able to actually submit it. B- but we’re, we’re loosening up because the, the leads have slowed down across the nation, I’ve heard.

Bryan Sebring: Um, and they, they’ve slowed down a little bit in this Franklin market as well, so we’re trying to not make it quite as hard for people to reach out to us. And so for a while I’m like, “Are we the right fit?” And they had to check box, do we do what you wanna do? I mean, because so many people reach out and like, “Will you retile our shower?”

Bryan Sebring: And we don’t do that. We only do start to finish full baths and kitchens. And so, um, so yeah, we’ve, we’ve really pushed that, and it’s, it’s been fine for us. I mean, there’s pros and cons. I’ve had Sandler tr- Sandler sales trainers say you should never put pricing on your website, and, uh, you know, Marcus Sheridan saying you should only do that, right?

Bryan Sebring: So you’ve got this big range and... But I will say I get less and less people on your website for periods of time. If you [00:22:00] looked at mine, the amount of minutes spent on my website 10 years ago compared to now, it’s way less. People don’t have the attention span. And so I don’t know. I’m not ... I mean, I know there’s a bunch of people in your group and, um, some of, uh, remodelers, um, the remodelers community group that talks about the whole Marcus Sheridan filling out the AI version of getting a price.

Bryan Sebring: If it takes too long, they’re not gonna do it, and so that’s why I’ve kind of ... I decided not to go down the road of building my own AI pricing guide, instead just leave what I have because it can at least wrap their head around big numbers. That’s all I’m trying to have them do.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. Well, I, you know, I, uh, so, uh, uh, about a week ago I interviewed, uh, someone from, from Google and, uh, she, she will actually be on the, the podcast I think maybe in the next couple weeks.

Eric Fortenberry: But, uh, I can, I can confirm she definitely recommended having this type of pricing guide where, you know, again, because you’re, you’re also educating, you know, Google, you’re educating the AIs. Like, I, I think what you’ve done really well here is that, you know, it, it, it’s, it’s not just like one price [00:23:00] or one range.

Eric Fortenberry: You’ve, you’ve taken a step further and said, “Well, look, if you’re looking for a larger kitchen or you’re looking for a larger basement, you know, here’s what your, your options might be,” and you’ve kinda got the three different buckets. You know, if you’re looking for a medium size, here’s what it might look like.

Eric Fortenberry: If you’re looking for a smaller size, you know, like, so again, it’s ... There’s not just like one range or one answer here, but it, like you said, it’s, it’s more important that you’re helping them to sort of get acclimated to what a budget might look like for this type of project. And, and, and at the end of the day, I mean, if, you know, if they walk away after that, then it probably wasn’t a good fit to begin with and the budget wasn’t there and, you know, you just saved yourself a whole lot of time.

Bryan Sebring: Yeah. I’m, I’m a huge believer in the power of three, and I get pushback from my staff at times where they’re like, “When have we done a kitchen for 100 grand in the last seven years?” Well, I mean, it’s ... 100 grand is a very basic, basic kitchen, but you gotta have the basic. You gotta lay out, you know, your number one granite.

Bryan Sebring: No one does granite. They haven’t done granite in 10 years, right? We do quartz [00:24:00] minimum nowadays. But you can do a kitchen for cheap, it’s just no one wants it. No one wants what I would do for that, where 15 years ago everyone was doing granite. That’s how ... That’s another thing, is prices go up every year. I tell people the best time to do your kitchen was last year, right?

Bryan Sebring: And so ev- it happens on a regular basis, but prices don’t go up, taste changes. I get ... No one’s doing anything basic anymore. I mean, when I first got in this business in 1999, going to the builders show, the amount of booths that are there now compared to back in 19- I mean, there’s just so many options. And so I get when people get overwhelmed going, “Well, I, I, I can do this kitchen for 40 grand or I can do a kitchen for 150 grand.

Bryan Sebring: Like, how do I price that out?” Well, you just put out big numbers and say it’s gonna be somewhere around there. Every year we tweak it and raise it that 5% or whatever inflation is, and people at least understand it, that it’s not an exact price, it’s just to wrap their head around the numbers.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah Now I want to ask you another thing.

Eric Fortenberry: So you, you, you mentioned earlier that, you know, once [00:25:00] you’ve gone through the, the, the, the discovery and the design phase, you give them, you know, 15 days to sign the contract and move forward, and if they do, then you credit that back as their first payment. You, you, you mentioned that that was, was sometimes controversial with some other builders.

Eric Fortenberry: Like, what, what’s the pushback on that? I, I mean, I-- To me, that sounds like a great way to, you know, impart urgency, but you’re offering up something. You’ve already spent a lot of time dating. You’ve already given them the information that they need. So w- what would people say who are pushing back on that and think that that’s not a good, a good practice?

Eric Fortenberry: What-- Why would that be?

Bryan Sebring: I mean, here’s the thing. When I price a kitchen, I’m pricing what it costs to build a kitchen, right? And so the num- the dollar amounts that I have in my design agreement are plenty of room. We make profit off of that. If they walk away, it’s incentive and we, we made money, we’ll move on.

Bryan Sebring: I want the job. I don’t want the design. I’m a design build, not a design. And so a lot of people believe it’s, you know-- [00:26:00] Homeowners want the feeling of feeling they’re getting a deal. I don’t negotiate our prices. I’ve never negotiated prices of all the years. People will ask me. We don’t negotiate prices because I feel that’s lying, right?

Bryan Sebring: If I could have given you that best price, I should have gave it to you upfront, right? And so for me, I just-- I have, I have a lot of head trash around this. In the beginning of having, having this business is that people want to feel like they got a deal, and it gives them that d-deal. I’m actually probably selling why you should do it.

Bryan Sebring: But they-- it feels like they got a little bit of a deal if they move forward in a quick way because some-- We used to get where people would go through this process and then just kind of sit and wait. We’re like, “Let’s move forward. Let’s get it going.” It incentivizes them to move forward quickly. And the-- I think the controversy is that people feel like you’re not being honest, that you’ve got design built in or this or that.

Bryan Sebring: But in the end, this is what the market dictates, right? I have not had someone try to negotiate my price since I’ve done that. Now, I won’t do it. I won’t give them a better price if they, if they wanna walk here, you know. Part of it is [00:27:00] ’cause I’ve got 7% of their money in my pocket. If they walk, you know what I mean?

Bryan Sebring: That’s a part of them deciding to use somebody else, right? And so for m- for me, I just-- I wanna try. The biggest thing I did is be putting a timetable on it. That is the biggest incentive. Urgency in this market. The best lead I get is someone that moved, ’cause we get a lot of people moving to Franklin from California, New York, Illinois, all, you know, all these other states.

Bryan Sebring: And those are the best lead because they have to move quickly. They can’t talk to 10 contractors. They just maybe meet with one or two. They go with who they trust rather than price, and they need it started tomorrow because they wanna move in after we get it done, right? So the ins- When I have someone that’s urgent, it’s the best lead for us, and so how can I also create urgency to that?

Bryan Sebring: And I mean, if someone came back three months later, I would not give it to them. If they came back an extra day, would give it to them. I’m like, “That’s fine.” Because I want the job, I’m not gonna be a stickler about this. But my thing is that I know if someone came back three months later They’re gonna want changes.

Bryan Sebring: We’re gonna [00:28:00] have to put more design time. “Oh, we wanna make this change.” Uh, you know, “I heard from my uncle that I should have done this, and I should have done that.” And so it just incentivized, let’s move through the process and, and when you’re ready, let’s get this signed and get the cabinets ordered, and let’s move to the next step.

Bryan Sebring: And it just, again, it’s more of an incentive base. So you’ll have to ask some of the other people why they find it controversial. For me, I don’t have a problem with it, but I, I think they feel like it’s... I don’t know, maybe there’s a dishonesty to it because you’re giving them a deal and I, I don’t know.

Bryan Sebring: I’m not sure why.

Eric Fortenberry: I, I love it. And, uh, you know, th- this is the first I’ve heard about kind of h- you know, h- you know, h- how you can sort of use that window to, to, to, to offer something up, you know, that, that at the end of the day, like as l- as long as you get the project, you know, you’re, you’ll be good. But it’s, it’s, it makes sense, too, that if you don’t get the project, well, at least now you’ve charged for your time, because so many people still don’t charge, you know, for the estimate or for the design.

Eric Fortenberry: And so they’re, they’re spinning their wheels, you know, trying to, trying to chase these, these deals, and then they don’t get anything for it. And I, and I think, again, that, that, that seems like a [00:29:00] losing battle, you know? So I, I think you’ve found a really good balance, you know, between charging but giving them that incentive to move forward right away versus, you know, I mean, ti- time kills all deals, right?

Eric Fortenberry: If, if, if they’re, if they’re able to just sit on it, you’ve now given them all the time in the world, and they’re gonna either second-guess it or they’re gonna go and, you know, shop it with everyone under the sun. Like, you know, like, “Let’s get this going.” And, and, and, and I just, I, I think it’s very fair. I, you know, I, I think it’s great

Bryan Sebring: Yeah, I would say one other thing by having the two-step process, the two and five, what’s nice about that process, and I’ve, I’ve told some of my peer group members, when you’re slow in the design department, do the discovery for free.

Bryan Sebring: You’re not giving out your drawing, you’re showing your drawing, right? If you have no work, you have to do something to make yourself different than the other-- every other person walking into a job. And so when I moved down to Nashville, we just said, “You know what? For the first year or two, we’re gonna do free discovery.”

Bryan Sebring: Every-- As long as they’re qualified on num- price, right? We give them that first number that [00:30:00] doesn’t sticker shock them. Let’s do the first discovery d- for free. Still get a design agreement, uh, you know, if we get into the design phase. But that first step, because we don’t give out the drawing, because we’re just reviewing it, because what, what’s nice about this is by doing that, I had one recently, end of last year, where she’s like, “Well, you’re 250 and everyone else is 150 for a kitchen.”

Bryan Sebring: And I’m like, “Well, can you show me what they included?” “Well, I don’t know.” “Um, did they include the, the...” You know, I had like a bread room, bread-making room in their kitchen. It was like a little pantry. And they’re like, “Did they include that?” “I think. I don’t know.” And I’m-- I literally, I’m like, so they’re debating and I, I get in a Zoom with them.

Bryan Sebring: I go, “Let’s just have a conversation. If it doesn’t-- if it’s not the right fit, go with the guy that gave you that price.” So I pulled up their drawing, and they hadn’t seen it. It would’ve been a few weeks ’cause they were still debating on who to go with. And they’re like, they hadn’t seen it in a while, and they’re like, “Okay, what do you want me to remove?

Bryan Sebring: I can get you down to 150.” “How about remove the bread room?” “Oh, we like that.” “How about remove this architectural hood that’s 15, 20 grand?” “Oh no, we like that.” I’m like, “It sounds like this is the [00:31:00] project you want.” She goes, “We’ve got the money. We just-- we were struggling with spending the money.” And then I found their pain.

Bryan Sebring: If you, if anybody’s heard of Sandler, you’re trying to find the pain. Their pain is they just wanted someone to come in and get the job done on time and not bother them. Once we’re done with design, just show up, get the job done. Because she was going through, she-- when we were there, she had... I’ve, I’ve told this story to a couple people.

Bryan Sebring: She had their basement flooded, so they had insurance people, repair people in there, and they wouldn’t show up. They would say they’re coming, they weren’t coming, and she was so frustrated with that. She goes, “How do you work?” I’m like, “Give me access to that door. We’ll tarp it off from the rest of the room, and we’ll just get it done.”

Bryan Sebring: And we did. And so that was what sealed the deal. She’s like, “We’ll send you the check. What do we need to pay you?” And so going back to that design that I did for free originally, still g- you know, still want them in a design agreement. We worked through all that and she loved us, and it was great. But it also, no one else does that.

Bryan Sebring: No one else is doing those designs. And so that’s where I say, when you’re slow in the design department, if you don’t have a lot going on, you-- and, and [00:32:00] again, as long as they have the idea of what it costs and we’re not wasting our time with that. You know, somebody give them a $200,000 price and They thought it was gonna be 50,000, you know what I mean?

Bryan Sebring: That’s where I, I don’t wanna deal with that. But once we have an idea of they’re wrapping their head around the numbers, then I will do s- occasionally do that if we’re slow in the design department. And it gives you flexibility to, you know, to get some more business. I mean, you do what you gotta do. When we’re slow and the leads are coming, again, I, I feel that with all the people I know right now.

Bryan Sebring: It’s like you gotta do whatever it takes to sign that next project, you know?

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. No, I, I love that. You know, and again, I think it’s a great... kinda gives you the option to, to, to kinda take that extra step if you need to use it to win the deal. I mean, just showing the design. I mean, again, uh, what a great teaser.

Eric Fortenberry: Like, “Hey, you know, here’s, here’s what we’re thinking. And is this, is this exciting to you, or are we, are we off the mark?” And you know, the more of those yeses, this is exciting, this is what I want, like, you know, it seems like that’ll just really help kinda progress it down the path with you.

Bryan Sebring: But, but not only that is in our meetings, we pull up the picture.

Bryan Sebring: We took before pictures of their ugly kitchen, [00:33:00] put it up on that screen, and I go, “Okay, this is what we’re starting with.” And they always go, “Oh, so ugly,” or something, you know what I mean? Like, “I’m so embarrassed about our kitchen,” right? You get that pain, and then you show them what it could be. They’re like, “Wow.”

Bryan Sebring: Again, you’re selling the, the result, the outcome. That’s what... I mean, I know we talked about the next step, but in the end, in the back of their head, what is the outcome? And that, and I literally can... I, I always say we can test drive your kitchen with a 3D rendering before we even demo it. And so again, in this market, in the Illinois market, there’s a lot of design build firms, some of the largest in the, in the w- nation, great design build firms.

Bryan Sebring: This market, there’s just not as many, and so w- it’s been easier to set ourselves apart compared to the co- competitiveness of, um, the Chicagoland market.

Eric Fortenberry: Sure. And, and, and, and I assume your designers, they’re, they’re all in-house employees?

Bryan Sebring: Yeah.

Eric Fortenberry: Ha- have they always been, or did you, did you ever start with outsourcing that?

Bryan Sebring: I mean, before I went to design build, I had a couple designers that I worked with. It, it’s, it’s a tough situation ’cause they wanna do s- they wanna lead, I wanna lead. I want the customer [00:34:00] to come back to me, not to them. And, and so I had... One time I had a designer I referred, and she built that relationship with the homeowner.

Bryan Sebring: And then the next project, even though we were fine, she gave them three other names for the next project, including mine. I’m like, “Wait a minute. I brought this person to you for this project,” and it was very frustrating. So that’s why I do it in-house. I’m not a... For me, I’m not a proponent of using-- I would use other designers, as long as we can have a good team.

Bryan Sebring: It’s just you have to, you have to build each other up, you have to be a team, and a lot of designers want to do things their own way. And so when I’ve worked with designers, now especially, I’m like, um, “We have a system. We have drawings that are the same every project. We’re detailed. We do-- Obviously, we use JobTread, and we do a detailed schedule.

Bryan Sebring: We print that schedule, put it on the wall, and the d-” We’re just-- We have a process to it, and if we bring another designer who’s creating those designs, they have to do it the way we do it. And so when we work with other designers now, we tell them, “I will do the drawings. You do the selections. You work with the client.

Bryan Sebring: You build that relationship. You make sure they’re happy. We’ll do the dr-” [00:35:00] Because we need those drawings to be detailed because that’s where mistakes happen, when you don’t have detailed designs on the job for sure. And

Eric Fortenberry: you, you mentioned, uh, a, a showroom earlier. Do, do you currently have a showroom, or is that maybe

Bryan Sebring: aspiration?

Bryan Sebring: Yeah, we’re almost, we’re almost done with it. Yes. Okay. We’re actually remodeling it right now. Um, it, uh, I call it at more of a design studio. I mean, there is-- We would have cabinets in there and countertops and stuff, but, um, yeah, it’s more boutiquey. We’re-- I mean, you don’t, you do not need a big showroom to sell what we do.

Bryan Sebring: Um, but y- it is nice to be able to bring them in if, and ’cause, you know, people buy for different reasons, whether it’s sight, sound, or touch. They can touch things and open drawers and see the quality of our cabinets and, you know, turn on the faucet and do all these things, and that’s just another way to help sell.

Bryan Sebring: ’Cause everyone buys in different ways, you know? So that’s why we did it. And, um, like having them come and be able to see the craftsmanship of something that we built in a space, it’s nice that we don’t have to go to another job. Actually, nowadays, people don’t even go to look at other jobs. They don’t feel comfortable [00:36:00] doing that.

Bryan Sebring: So having to be able to come into a design studio will be very good. It wor- worked very well in Illinois.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. I’ve, I’ve yet to meet somebody who says that the design studio, the, the, the showroom was a bad idea or it didn’t work out. I mean, it seems like it is a great way to, to, again, just keep progressing those relationships with the clients, getting to, you know, the, the more face to face.

Eric Fortenberry: I mean, they’re coming to you. They’re kinda getting to spend more time, see how you guys work. I mean, it just, it seems like it’s all around a great, great solution. Uh, what, what did it, like what did it take for you to, to actually make this happen? Like how come, you know, you waited until now to, to do that?

Eric Fortenberry: Like why did, why do more builders not kinda just do that earlier on? Is it just the cost

Bryan Sebring: maybe? I, I wanted to, I wanted to own it Uh, I sold my business in Naperville in Jan- January, February. I sold the building around that time in 2020-- 2023, and so I wanted to find something right away. As soon as... I, I didn’t-- When I moved here, they have a nice, I call it designer row, where we can take a client and go to every vendor.

Bryan Sebring: It’s [00:37:00] f- it’s easy to do. Um, and again, we’re still charging design-build charges without having a showroom. That, I can tell you, it’s not just about the showroom, right? It’s about the whole experience. But, um, yeah, h- honestly, this market is really hard to find property. Everyone’s moving here and investing and buying and renting.

Bryan Sebring: I didn’t wanna rent, I wanted to buy. So I kinda tried to find the right thing. It took me a while, actually. It probably took me, once I sold and I had cash from my other building, probably took me a good year and a half, year, yeah, maybe a y- yeah, before I found something. And now it’s just been-- We, we’re just busy here.

Bryan Sebring: We’re busy, and I can’t get my guys over there to get it done. And, uh, that’s been a struggle because the mortgage every single month is those thousands of dollars that I’m spending on not using it. So it’s, that’s been a frustration. But, you know, it’s hard frustration when you’re that busy. It’s good to be busy, right?

Bryan Sebring: Money’s coming in the door. So that’s a, I guess, a good reason to not have it done yet. But yeah, that’s-- I would suggest it if people can afford it. Even a s- one conference room where you have cabinets on the [00:38:00] wall and countertops in a, in, in storage where you can pull up something to have them come and meet there I think would be worth it.

Eric Fortenberry: Sure. And so h- how many employees do you have now on the team?

Bryan Sebring: L- uh, 11

Eric Fortenberry: 11? Awesome. And, and you had mentioned that I think you’re working with, uh, one of our partners at JL Talent Solutions, Justin over there. Is that right?

Bryan Sebring: He actually has helped me hire my last three, three people, uh, four people. Yeah, he- Justin is great.

Bryan Sebring: I, I, um, I l- I mean, he’s, he just does construction, I call it headhunting, whatever, finding... You know, he only knows the cons- I mean, he probably knows more, but he really foc- he niched down to the construction market and, and so he works with a lot of other contractors with finding the same people. So not only can he help you with that, he can help you create a 90-day onboarding process.

Bryan Sebring: I mean, he’s, he’s been very helpful, and he’s very knowledgeable psychology-wise. He does some good testing for, um, applicants that come in the door. I still have my own process of hiring. I still-- I’m a big proponent of DiSC. Um, he uses [00:39:00] a system called Preview to, to test for aptitude, whether they can do the job.

Bryan Sebring: And then, uh, for me, he’s also done wedge interviews, which is a visual interview process where they take their phone and answer five basic questions so I can see the person, I can see if they fit our culture and communication style and skills. And then, and then I take it f- I mean, he interviews them too, but then I will interview them, do a 15-minute Zoom interview, and then I do, uh, team interviews.

Bryan Sebring: I’m a big team interview proponent because I like having other people in the company. I want their buy-in before I hire someone. So when they, if they have a complaint about them, I’m like, “Remember you said you wanted to hire them too. Remember? Remember that? Remember you said that?” So I’ve got a really good, good interview questions I use, um, that really gets them thinking and, and it’s not just yes/no.

Bryan Sebring: I want to get them talking and getting to know them because really is about relation... I, I want them to be able to fit. So, and then when they first start, I use DiSC Tell them about their DiSC, tell them about the people they’re gonna be working with their [00:40:00] DiSCs, and, uh, explain to them where they may have some conflict or where they’ll work well together, why the...

Bryan Sebring: I thought they were a good fit in our company. And, uh, that, that’s been pretty good. Eye-opening, actually. I spend the first at least half day with them, take them out to lunch, go through, maybe go check a couple jobs, kind of get them and, you know, make them feel comfortable, get them to know some people, that sort of thing, so.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. That’s awesome. I, I love that. And, you know, again, I I think having, having a great, you know, hiring process is, is so important, and involving, you know, more people on the team who can help you sorta, “Hey, you know, is, is this really make sense, or do I have my rose-colored glasses on and I just really want to hire this person?”

Eric Fortenberry: You know, I think having that, that, that check from, from others on the team who are also gonna be spending their time working with them is, is, is a really good move.

Bryan Sebring: I, I normally... So one of the things, because I’ve, I’ve used DiSC for a while, I normally pick up on their DiSC the first interview. And I, honestly, I normally set aside a DiSC that I’m looking for, for a specific role.

Bryan Sebring: Um, and so when I get them down, normally it’s one or two people for [00:41:00] that team interview. I don’t get 15 team interviews. We don’t have enough time to do that. It would take too... And so I narrow it down to normally one or two people and go, “Okay.” Um, and normally, uh, normally people go, “Yeah, I get why you, why they’re here.”

Bryan Sebring: You know, because I’ve, I’ve, I’m understanding the personality profile of who I want, and I think when you do that and you, and you’re understanding the right fit, like there’s certain DiSC profiles for a project manager I would, I would not hire personally, ’cause I’ve had that, and certain ones that I would definitely.

Bryan Sebring: It’s like what I’m looking for. And so, um, I just, sometimes it’s a struggle of sticking to that because you don’t get a, you know, you don’t get the right applicants. It can take months. I always say there’s always someone out there for the position. It just may take you a while to find that person, and that’s the hard part, is waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting.

Bryan Sebring: Three, four, five months and waiting for that right person. ’Cause again, I know you’ve hired a lot of people over the last however many years you’ve been in business. For me, we have a small team, right? I don’t want to grow to 100 people, 50 people. I don’t want that. And so finding the right person is really important because [00:42:00] man, wrong company culture can blow up a team.

Bryan Sebring: And, um, so it’s really important to take your time. That’s the biggest thing. Take your time, you know, finding the right person, so.

Eric Fortenberry: Couldn’t agree more. I see so many people who kind of just, they, they, they, they, they get overwhelmed. They’re, they feel like they’re drowning, and then they’re like, “Oh, well, we need to hire someone.”

Eric Fortenberry: They just hire the first person that walks in the door, and, you know, a lot of times it’s, you know, their family or spouse or friend, and it’s like, man, you know, I’m sure they’re great people, but they’re probably not the right people who are qualified and don’t have the right experience, and they end up just, you know, wasting more time and, and it becomes more of a frustration.

Eric Fortenberry: And now they’re in this, like, awkward situation, “Well, you know, how do I get rid of this person who, you know, who’s like a good dear friend or family,” you know? And it’s like, man, you should have just, you know, taken the right time, built out the right job descriptions, you know, run the right process, and then wait until you find that right person.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, it does make all the difference.

Bryan Sebring: I mean, I, I did it, again, back in the early 2000s. I was just hiring, you know, and they all, “He seemed like a good guy to hire.” I didn’t have any process around it. And so when I came to Franklin, [00:43:00] I took that 25 years of knowledge and the five years of being in a peer group that were am- amazingly golden and said, “I’m only-- I’m going to stick to what I’ve learned and not go outside of that.”

Bryan Sebring: Whether it’s the job type I do, whether it’s the process, whether it’s hiring, doesn’t matter what it is, I was taught the right way to do things. And I’m like, “Now I’m starting in a brand-new market, and I just have to be patient. Be patient with this.” And it, and it worked. It, it really does. I mean, that, that’s the thing is I highly recommend anyone willing to grow to join a peer group.

Bryan Sebring: Find a good peer group to, to get involved with, someone that... a peer group that’s generous. Because you’re not, again, you’re not just learning from the coach, you’re looking for, you’re learning from the other people in the group, so it changed my life. I mean, I, I couldn’t have moved to Tennessee if I wasn’t part of that peer group.

Bryan Sebring: I would not have had the equity and the money, ’cause I started charging more money. That’s the one thing I learned first, I wasn’t charging enough money. You know, I was wondering like, “Why am I not making any money?” I’m like, “I, I swear.” ’Cause every one of us gets beaten up by clients. Depending on where you’re at, you could be cheap and you’re still, they’re [00:44:00] still gonna say you’re too expensive.

Bryan Sebring: And, and, and I would tell people, the best thing you can hear from a homeowner say is, “You know, you’re not cheap, but you’re really good. You’re not cheap, but you’re really good at what you do.” That’s what I want to hear. Because you know what? The bottom line is that we, this, I have to earn a living. I want to someday retire.

Bryan Sebring: I don’t want to be working until I’m 80, and you have to make sure you charge enough money. So that was the first thing I learned in peer group, and I stuck to it when we moved here, so.

Eric Fortenberry: I, I, I wanna, I want to ask you about one more difficult, uh, challenge that I, that I know you had to overcome. So you were, uh, on QuickBooks Desktop for a good while, right?

Eric Fortenberry: And, uh, had to, had to finally pull the, uh, p- pull the Band-Aid off and make the switch to, to QuickBooks Online. Can, can you tell us a little bit about that and kind of, you know, what, what was that process look like? And, you know, did, did you get help doing that? Uh, yeah.

Bryan Sebring: This is what I’d say is, is that the smartest thing you’ve done, Eric, is created that, I don’t know what, what do you call it?

Bryan Sebring: The market of other people that are connected to JobTread.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah, the marketplace.

Bryan Sebring: I, I, I have a crass version of calling it the JobTread leeches. Like, the people [00:45:00] I kid with people. Like, the people that are, are surrounding your business, helping your business, they’re have a whole business on it, and I interviewed two or three people.

Bryan Sebring: I ended up using Penny Lane. She helped me, um, merge that over, and it was, it was actually pretty pain, pain-free, for sure. I mean, the one thing... So I’m a big proponent of WIP. I st- I, I think that you, I, I think you guys do a pretty good job. I think that that’s w- I think you guys are working on that behind the scenes.

Bryan Sebring: But what’s nice with JobT- So one of the things, I never moved to QuickBooks Online because they didn’t have very good reporting. And so the ironic part is I learned from a, a lady c- named Judith Miller. I don’t know if you’ve heard that name. She was connected with Romalds then, and she is a mentor of mine.

Bryan Sebring: I, I thank her for so many things. I’ve called her and thank for all she taught me. But she was like, “Never merge over to QuickBooks Online.” Now she’s retired, and she doesn’t understand that I just did that. She, sh- I talked to her and she’s like, “How would you do that?” I go, “JobTread allows you to do that.”

Bryan Sebring: The JobTread, um, [00:46:00] report system makes QuickBooks Online doable. It was never doable before. We could never have done w- our work in progress accounting with the QuickBooks Online before. But because of your system, it actually has allowed me to do WIP on the first of the month now. I never could’ve done WIP.

Bryan Sebring: I always had to wait till the 13th or 14th or 15th of the month, waited till all the credit cards got in. Now I’m doing it immediately, um, and it’s working out well. It’s, we’ve had to change our system. Ev- every time you make a change, it, I mean, that’s the big pain for you, I’m sure. You hear it from everyone.

Bryan Sebring: I gotta have all my employees that were using these other horrible software packages, they’re all used to it though, right? Merging over to you is like, well, they’re not used to the way you do things. Why do you do things this way? Why does JobTread do... It’s just change, right? And so I’ve definitely adapted, and it’s going well.

Bryan Sebring: Um, and, uh, but we made sure to pay the money to have someone as backup because we do payroll through QuickBooks. Um, we, um, there’s a couple tweaks. We use Stripe. For us, Stripe didn’t work as well. We, I think we’re moving over to Trust now. So there’s [00:47:00] been some growing pains with it a little bit, um, because we, QuickBooks Desktop, the billing, uh, invoicing clients was a lot easier than QuickBooks Online.

Bryan Sebring: They charge more For it. They charge a percentage. I’m like, “I’m not paying a percentage of it,” you know? And so there were some little, little learning curves from it, but at least you created a software that’s merged well with it, and it’s, it’s been good in the, in the long run. But yes, it was ... Anytime you make a change, it’s painful, but it wasn’t as painful, honestly, if...

Bryan Sebring: ’Cause I used to use CoConstruct, who’s no- I think they’re no longer gonna be around, and I merged over to yours, and that was probably more painful because it was just different. You... I would say I liked your software even better, but getting everyone adapted to it just takes time, you know? You ... And that’s all you guys do, I’m sure, is warming people up to using it and making it as easy as possible, so.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah. I, I, I definitely recommend, uh, people, if, if they are on QuickBooks Desktop looking to make that transition, I mean, you know, hiring someone like Penny Lane, I mean, she’s, she’s incredible. She’s done it, you know, hundreds and hundreds of times. Like, she, she’s probably the reason why it [00:48:00] felt as, as painless as it did.

Eric Fortenberry: I, I know sometimes when people try to go at it, you know, on their own, and QuickBooks does have a whole set of tools to help kinda migrate your, your, your QBD file into QBO and, you know, it’s, it, it still, it, it is a big challenge. But, you know, I, I often do hear, you know, once you kinda get through it, once you’ve made that change, you know, it, it does feel like, “Man, I probably should’ve done that a while ago, you know, I just held out,” or, “My bookkeeper, she, she wasn’t willing to make the change,” or, “He wasn’t willing to make the change.”

Eric Fortenberry: And so like, kinda once that, and sort of all the dust settles, it d- it does seem like people kinda see that, that, that, that light at the end of the tunnel, say, “Ah, all right. It pre- it probably worked out.”

Bryan Sebring: But I, I will say, r- on a side note to what you just said there, having a, a, I call it a rockstar bookkeeper, office manager, whatever you wanna say, is one of the keys to a strong remodeling business.

Bryan Sebring: And so when that happened, my bookkeeper, I gave her the challenge. She was ready for it. She changed all of our processes and all got them in writing, you know. She was very organized, and we handed it off to Penny. It took a few days to get it [00:49:00] back, but, um, yes, I mean, she took care of it. I think that if we did it over again, we probably could’ve done it on our own, but it’s not worth it.

Bryan Sebring: Just pay the few thousand dollars or whatever it costs. Just, it’s not worth the risk of having what if it doesn’t work, what have, having an expert, you know, guide you. It’s kinda like people hiring us for d- general contracting their own kitchen. It’s like, I, I, I try to live what I preach to other people about hiring us.

Bryan Sebring: I try to do that with other people. Spend the money, but if you’re charging the right amount of money and you’re profitable, spending that money is not a big deal. It’s just, it’s just leveling up and make, you know, making it easier to do business later. And it, it is, because my bookkeeper is remote. She’s still in Illinois, and she ha- she was having to log on using Google Desktop, the QuickBooks on a laptop next to me.

Bryan Sebring: Now she’s just, doesn’t have to do that anymore, so. So it, it was pretty archaic, but, um, QuickBooks is... I’m frustrated. I don’t like QuickBooks. There’s, you know, I’m sure you hear that from other people, but, um, but connecting it to JobTread has definitely been a game changer. So if you, you know, if people are [00:50:00] sitting out there wondering, if you work with JobTread, you’re gonna get that connection that’s gonna help make it work.

Eric Fortenberry: Absolutely. So I’m curious, uh, you know, what, what can you tell us, you know, just g- give us a little more insight into what, what’s it like to, you know, be part of this, this Remodelers on the Rise, you know, working with Kyle Hunt, with all the coaches, you know, with, with you and your group there. Like, you know, again, I, I think Kyle has built an incredible community.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, I, I feel like he truly wears his heart on his sleeve. He looks out for each and every person in that whole group, and he’s built something that I, that I feel like is, is really a gem. You know, it’s, it’s this kind of like this, this, this, this small group of people who are very, very, you know, committed to helping each other.

Eric Fortenberry: They’re very supportive. You know, not, not many communities out there on, on, on Facebook, you know, kind of are able to sort of keep a very positive environment. You know, a lot of times as you start to get a bunch of people in a Facebook group, it can very quickly kind of get, start to go negative. You get the keyboard warriors.

Eric Fortenberry: Like what... How, how has he done that? You know, what, what do you think has, has been some of the, kind of the [00:51:00] most special things about, you know, this, this community, Remodelers on the Rise?

Bryan Sebring: I mean, it’s, it’s the culture, just like your own business, right? I mean, he, he has mapped out a culture of what he wants.

Bryan Sebring: He asked me, it’s been a, I think a couple years now when he originally asked me to be a peer group member. It took a little while before he decided to actually, you know, do it. He just picked my brain. I’m like, “I would actually work for you.” And part of it is that he’s open because I’m a business owner, but I also know what it’s, what it’s like to have a great employee, right?

Bryan Sebring: I’m technically not his employee, but I am kind of. And so I’m like, “You know, I’m gonna come to Kyle and I’m going to be his best employee he’s ever had, but I’m also gonna wanna be there to challenge him to be better.” And he is open to that. Um, he is open to making his peer groups the best they can be.

Bryan Sebring: I’ve been in my own peer group. There’s certain things I’m used to that he doesn’t do, that he does that they don’t do. There’s a, a give and take, but he’s also open for the leaders, Peter Rainey, Curtis Lawson, me, and Ky- ... We meet on a regular basis. We, [00:52:00] you know, we... He genuinely cares about the people involved.

Bryan Sebring: That’s, that’s probably the biggest thing, you know? Um, he purposely interviews them to put them in the right group that’s gonna be the best for them. He doesn’t just throw them into any group ’cause he w- I mean, his pride is having people in, in there for a long time. And I, I said to him, I go, “That’s not always good.

Bryan Sebring: Sometimes people need to leave, right? Sometimes in a peer group setting, they’re not the right fit or they’re not growing, they’re not doing what they should be doing.” Because when you join a peer group, you make a commitment to get your commitments done, right? You mean, when you create every, twice a year, you say, “I’m gonna get this done by our next meeting.”

Bryan Sebring: If you don’t get it done, eventually you shouldn’t be a part of the group, right? The whole idea is that we wanna see growth. We want you to help us, we wanna help you, and I’m only... I don’t do this, I, I tell my group, I’m not doing it for the money. I make way more money in my business than coaching. I do it for the fulfillment.

Bryan Sebring: I feel fulfilled helping other people and being there for them. I’m very hands-on. So if anybody in my group texts me, I text them right back. [00:53:00] Like, I wanna, I want to see them grow. That would be, when I, in five to 10 years from now, seeing them grow into these 10, $15 million companies that are very profitable, retiring at a young age, that’s like, oh, that gets me going.

Bryan Sebring: And that’s the same way Kyle is. Kyle cares about the people in his group. He’s not just doing it for the money. He, he could do way more things to be more profitable if he wanted, but he, if it doesn’t fit with his culture, he’s not gonna do it. He just, he makes it that way. So that’s why, um, I joined with Kyle, but again, that, that setting, being with three other leaders and hearing what’s going on with their group and how they’re doing and how they tackle certain things, ’cause come sometime, you get in a, a meeting like that, man, and owning a business is emotional, right?

Bryan Sebring: They’re a cry fest, right? Where people are emotional. They’re going through a lot of things. That, we need to be a, have a group that’s, that’s all right to be that way because, you know, pretty much your business is family. Like, it’s everything. And so having a, a, a, a, an experience that [00:54:00] allows people to be vulnerable but challenge them to learn and grow And pushing them to do that is what I wanted.

Bryan Sebring: I w- I mean, sometimes, man, sometimes it’s a hard conversation you have with them, but man, I’m doing it for them, not for me. You know what I mean? I’m doing it because I’ve done it, I’ve seen what they’re doing, and although I’m not someone ... If they’re doing it right, and I’ll, I’ll give you one example, like fixed price versus cost plus, right?

Bryan Sebring: That’s a big topic, right? I am not a proponent of cost plus. But if I have a member in my group that’s doing it well More power to you. Work on it. But if he’s not profitable, I’m going after that cost plus, right? If they’re not doing... I mean, but, and that’s the thing is I, you know, being a part of my OP group, I had members that did cost plus, and I had, was some that did it very well, and they still had members saying you shouldn’t do cost plus even though they were doing it very well.

Bryan Sebring: I’m like, “Just let, let it go.” If they’re doing it well, you know, that, let’s work on other parts of the business they need help on. So my thing is, is that I’m, I, you know, it’s gotta be challenging, but it’s also be, [00:55:00] gotta be nurturing and caring, and that’s what Kyle’s groups are. I mean, um, they’re, again, they’re just great, and I’ve enjoyed it tremendously.

Eric Fortenberry: Well, he’s, he’s, he’s clearly chosen some, some great people to lead those groups, and you know, I, I, I appreciate you for taking your time to, to go out of your way to, to help others because again, like, this is, this is what our industry needs more of, is more great role models who are willing to open up and show them how you have built a successful business.

Eric Fortenberry: Here’s what’s worked. Here’s what’s not working. Hey, let’s come up with some solutions together. Like, th- th- this entire industry, I, I truly believe we can help rise each other up by just working together. And, and, and, and again, it’s, it’s, it, it doesn’t have to be this dog eat, you know, dog world. Like, we, we can have, you know, our cake and eat it too by just, like, collaborating.

Eric Fortenberry: And, and I think a lot of people, “Oh, I can’t, I can’t talk to others ’cause they’re in my market or they’re my competition.” It’s like, no, like, there, there is an opportunity for everyone here to win, and it’s about finding the right community that you become part of. And, [00:56:00] you know, again, I’m just, I’m, I’m a big fan of Kyle.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, I think he, he, he, he makes it fun too. You know, he has a very good sense of humor- Yep ... and he knows, you know, when to be serious and when to be lighthearted and when to kinda make sure that everyone is enjoying the journey because, you know, again, like, if you’re not having fun running your business, if you just feel like you’re just r- you know, running yourself i- into the ground and, and, and it’s just, it’s not fun anymore, then why are you doing it, you know?

Eric Fortenberry: And, and I think he kinda helps bring some of that, you know, that, that, that, that excitement and being able to, like, recognize, you know, look, let’s, let’s find our wins, and let’s go celebrate the wins. Let’s, let’s take one step after another, and we can build a successful business. And you know, I think it’s, it’s, it’s a very good community where, where people are very accepting regardless if you, if you’ve been doing it for, you know, for 10 years or, or, or 10 days.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, I think it’s a community that it’s easy for people to come and become part of, you know. And, and, and he’s also got a, got, got a really great event. You know, it was, I think, the inaugural, uh, Rise [00:57:00] Conference that he does every summer, so I think it’s, uh, in, in August this year, uh- Yep ... Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Eric Fortenberry: I’ll be

Bryan Sebring: there. Y-

Eric Fortenberry: you’ll, you’ll be there, I assume, yeah?

Bryan Sebring: The year before, I think, right? You were speaking.

Eric Fortenberry: Yeah, yeah. Yep, so.

Bryan Sebring: Okay.

Eric Fortenberry: Definitely encourage, you know, again, if, if, if anyone out there, like, is, is, is not familiar with this group or isn’t part of the, the community yet, like, you know, this could be a great way to, to not only join the community, but get to meet these people face to face.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, because a- again, I, I think some- sometimes it, it takes us getting out of our day to day, stepping away from the office, getting, getting off the job site, getting away from the computer and just go and spend time with others who are going through these same challenges. You know, when you put yourself in the room with a bunch of smart people who are going through the same thing or have already overcome the same thing, you know, like it, it is such an uplifting opportunity and, and it just...

Eric Fortenberry: You know, I, I, I’m a big, big fan, you know, big proponent. Would love to see everyone come out in, uh, in, in Ann- Ann Arbor, Michigan. Uh, I, I, I can’t, can’t say enough though about, about the group and

Bryan Sebring: Yeah, I mean, I, I will say it is a great time to be a [00:58:00] contractor. And the reason why I said that, starting before the iPhone, right, and having now Facebook groups where you can talk to people around

Bryan Sebring: I mean, some of my best friends, I ... My best friends are not in my market. You know, I have friends in Orlando and back in Illinois, and some of my closest friends are not even in my markets because I’ve connected through Kyle’s group, and you know what I mean? And so all, all I’ll say is, and I’ve said this before on other podcasts, if, if you’re out there doing this alone, stop.

Bryan Sebring: Stop doing it alone. It’s like there’s so much availability. Just be vulnerable. I, you know, I’ve, again, I’ve talked, I learned from a, a guy that used to be in my peer groups. I, I ... Kyle had, ironically, Kyle had him on his podcast, this is 15 years ago, Andy Hayes from Riverside Construction, um, in, uh, Lafayette, Indiana.

Bryan Sebring: He talked about everywhere he would go on vacation, he would call up someone, a contractor in the local market, and say, “Can I come by and see your design studio? Can I spend a couple hours with you?” And some people would never call him back, some people would. And I’m, I’m like, “Holy, that [00:59:00] takes guts.” And it’s like putting yourself out there.

Bryan Sebring: And now that I’ve been part of a peer group community, there’s a connection with that. Even in, with Kyle’s remodelers community, you can say, “Hey, is anybody in this market that I’m traveling to? Yeah, can I come and spend an hour with you and learn about how you do business?” People are open to that. I mean, more people are open to it than ever before.

Bryan Sebring: And I agree with you. I used to, back in Illinois, and I do it now in Nashville too, I ... Now in Nashville, I’ve got a group of, like, 20 contractors I’ve pushed to meet for lunch quarterly and may- more like twice a year. And just to connect with other ... Even though they’re in our market, we can still share how things are going, what’s going on.

Bryan Sebring: There’s ways to connect. It, it does not have to be cutthroat unless you choose it to be cutthroat. And not, not everyone’s gonna be open to it. Those that aren’t, you just move on into the n- next person. So I used to do the same thing in Illinois where we would meet regularly with other peer group mem- pe- peer group members that weren’t in my peer group ’cause they were local, and we’d just meet for lunch.

Bryan Sebring: How are you doing? What’s going on with you? Hey, do you guys have a good drywall guy? I’ll help [01:00:00] you when you need help. And so we’d ... It’s just, it, it’s no reason to be in your little box and off to the side. Yeah. I mean, a- again, get out there and put yourself in front of people. And, and if, if people wanna reach out to me, re- find me.

Bryan Sebring: I’m, I’m ... You can find me online. I would definitely talk to anybody. That’s just the way I am,

Eric Fortenberry: so. Yep Awesome. Well, look, Brian, I, I really appreciate you coming on, sharing how you have built your company, the things that have worked really well for you, you know, how, how instrumental peer groups have been.

Eric Fortenberry: You know, just again, I, I, I appreciate you being a great role model for everyone else out there as well. You know, it means a lot. Our industry needs it. We’re very, very grateful for you. So thank you for, for taking the time to come on here. You know, everyone else, if, if, if you’d like to get in touch with Brian, you know, feel free to, to reach out to me.

Eric Fortenberry: Happy to connect you guys or come out to, come out to the Rise Conference and get to meet him in person. But, you know, at the end of the day, you know, just, just I, I hope that people can take away some of the lessons that you shared here, because this is how you build a great business, and I’m excited to see where you continue to go with yours, [01:01:00] Brian.

Eric Fortenberry: You- you’ve done a, a really good job.

Bryan Sebring: I, I appreciate the compliments. I would say I only-- I paid it forward. I learned from somebody else. I had multiple mentors in my life that I can never pay back, and so I just... I almost feel guilty that I, I can’t. So I try to pay it forward to the next person and, uh, leave a legacy.

Bryan Sebring: I mean, you’re doing the same thing, Eric. You’re leaving a legacy with your teaching and trainings, and I mean, gosh, when, when I die, I want people to remember who I am, not just, “Who’s this Brian guy?” You know what I mean? So I think we should all be that way personally, but that’s just my, my approach.

Bryan Sebring: Awesome.

Eric Fortenberry: Well, look, look forward to seeing you again soon, Brian.

Bryan Sebring: Thanks, Eric. Thanks for having me on.

Eric Fortenberry: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Builder Stories. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gained valuable insights that can help you in your journey along the way. Don’t forget to subscribe to the show and leave us a review.

Eric Fortenberry: And as always, if you or someone you know has a story to share, please contact us at builderstories.com. We’d love to hear from you. I’m Eric Fortenberry, and remember, [01:02:00] every builder has a unique story. Keep building yours